Malaysian Flight 370

[Great Ozzie 101]

 

 

This is the sovereignty of nations.....

I don't think so.  This incident occurred over international waters.  Is not the reason Malaysia is heading the investigation due to MH370 originating from that country?

 

The USA is no different as there was a Canadian Navy Supply Ship off the shores of New Orleans and ready to help during Hurricane Katrina that was refused.

Very curious to know what the name of the ship that was supposedly sitting off the coast of New Orleans and was not permitted to assist in aid efforts...

 

Reality is there are rules about allowing a foreign Armed Force into your territories as you can't just let them in just like that.  USA has rules about letting a foreign Armed Force onto land. Brazil is no different either.

I'm sure every country "has rules" about letting "a foreign Armed Force onto land".  Personally, as a U.S. Marine, I have been to a number of 'Ports of Call' during three separate U.S. Navy Amphibious Squadron deployments.  We docked at Singapore.  Not sure what you mean, as I bet dollars to donuts it is still a Port of Call for the U.S. Seventh Fleet.

Speaking about those "rules"... I was on board a U.S. ship at Pearl Harbor when we had ships from Japan's SDF docked there.  Surreal to see the "Rising Sun" flag at Pearl... nonetheless, it is a port of call for "foreign" navies.

 

This is why the Canadian Navy was not allowed to make a landing in New Orleans to help.

Hmmm... I just read the following:

Although the best port in terms of condition was located in Texas, Formation Logistics decided that this was too faraway for the ships to steam for resupply. Further, it did not make sense to send them to devastated cities like Biloxi, Gulfport, or New Orleans. Pascagoula Mississippi was considered, but it was decided that the logical initial stopping place was Pensacola. It was estimated that this port would be sufficiently repaired by the time the CTG arrived to offload humanitarian assistance items. The decision to dock in Pensacola was made after the ships were en route, again, an example of the flexibility of an ocean-based response.
(Canadian Military Journal, p.57 Vol. 12, No. 3, Summer 2012)

 

Each nation has their protocols and their sovereignty must be respected.

Sure... and I think they were respected by other nations.  But this respect for "protocols and sovereignty" led to a significant delay in the search (and possible rescue).  Whatever mistrust there was should have been set aside for the sake of the crew and passengers / families of MH370.

 

I know... hindsight.  But it is a fact that the resources in the U.S. are top drawer regarding aircraft accident investigation.
 

[tf51d 284]

 

 

If the range of detection of the ping is said to be about 2 or 3 miles, and they are pretty certain that that is what they are hearing, then why still such a large area?

 

I think the search area for the Black Box is only a few square miles now, but they still need to search a large area for debris, which over time have floated away in the current.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

I don't think so.  This incident occurred over international waters.  Is not the reason Malaysia is heading the investigation due to MH370 originating from that country?

With Air France the aircraft's origin was Brazil, and its destination was France, and the aircraft was manufactured in France....Therefore for the USA to get involved without permission would have been meddling. They would have to be invited to get involved in this situation. International Waters is irrelevant.

 

Same with MH370....Malaysian Government requested Australia to head up the investigation and search operations. USA has respected this decision and offered the ping detector as a useful asset to the Aussies.

 

Very curious to know what the name of the ship that was supposedly sitting off the coast of New Orleans and was not permitted to assist in aid efforts...

HMCS Athabaskan. What happened was Canadians wanted to help so donated items that were loaded onto the Athabaskan as well as Coast Guard ships and a few others. When the Athabaskan first arrived it was not allowed to come ashore initially because it was a foreign Navy.....I can understand this.

 

Imagine if we had a Flood today in the Ukraine.....Putin would likely take advantage and send in the troops to 'Help' as a way to take advantage of a situation to move troops over the border. Nations have protocols in place for a reason.

 

A disaster isn't a party where everyone wants to be invited to help...A disaster is for the country of origin to use best assets available to them, and if they need assets from other nations then they can seek that out. Other nations can't just show up to help because they want to help.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Therefore for the USA to get involved without permission would have been meddling. International Waters it irrelevant.

 

I don't understand your point.  This idea of "meddling" is utter rubbish -- as many countries ask for the U.S. to aid in aircraft accident investigation.  At any rate, in the case of AF 447 the U.S. was quite involved.

 

My understanding, it is relevant and in such a case, is based on aircraft registry.

 

 

 

Same with MH370....Malaysian Government requested Australia to head up the investigation and search operations.

 

Yes and No... Malaysia invited Australia to "participate as an accredited representative in the investigation".  So the agreement was for Australia to lead the search.  But Malaysia still has the responsibility for the accident investigation... Australia only a supporting participant.  Btw, the U.S. , U.K. and China are also "accredited representatives".

 

 

HMCS Athabaskan. What happened was Canadians wanted to help so donated items that were loaded onto the Athabaskan as well as Coast Guard ships and a few others. When the Athabaskan first arrived it was not allowed to come ashore initially because it was a foreign Navy.....I can understand this.

 

Sounds to me you are rewriting history.  Read that CMJ I quoted from above.

 

Again... all the foreign countries where I have stepped ashore (from U.S. Naval Vessels) and the foreign military ships I have seen docked in various countries... no, I do not understand that.

 

 

Nations have protocols in place for a reason.

 

And little thingys called treaties... like NATO... ANZUS... etc...

 

 

 

A disaster isn't a party where everyone wants to be invited to help...A disaster is for the country of origin to use best assets available to them, and if they need assets from other nations then they can seek that out. Other nations can't just show up to help because they want to help.

 

Then, my friend... you should understand the U.S. response to outside aid after Katrina.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

I don't understand your point.  This idea of "meddling" is utter rubbish -- as many countries ask for the U.S. to aid in aircraft accident investigation.  At any rate, in the case of AF 447 the U.S. was quite involved.

I don't recall any disaster in the history of the world where the USA ever showed up without a request for assistance. The USA just doesn't do that, or any other nation.

 

The USA is at the ready when called upon, same with anyone else, that is just how it works, always has.

 

Even with treaties like NATO etc....the USA wouldn't just show up in France in a disaster if they were not requested in the first place. France would have an emergency management and seek the best assets available to them at the time for whatever the disaster maybe....If they USA had an asset they would ask, if Germany had that asset and could get it their quicker then that would be the better option.

[WR269 367]

 

 

Yes and No... Malaysia invited Australia to "participate as an accredited representative in the investigation". So the agreement was for Australia to lead the search. But Malaysia still has the responsibility for the accident investigation... Australia only a supporting participant. Btw, the U.S. , U.K. and China are also "accredited representatives".

 

That is actually incorrect.

 

Australia is coordinating the search in the Indian Ocean (International Waters) because it is actually inside Australia's FIR, and it is inside Australia's designated Search and Rescue responsibility area.

[Great Ozzie 101]

I don't recall any disaster in the history of the world where the USA ever showed up without a request for assistance. The USA just doesn't do that, or any other nation.

 

So again, I do not understand your point about meddling.  You are making the mabe54's (and my) point.

 

 

 

That is actually incorrect.

 

The information I posted came from an interview of Air Chief Marshal Houston that is posted on the JACC website... hence the quotes.

 

 

Let me tell you a little bit more about that. Under the Chicago convention, the accident investigation into the disappearance of MH370 is the responsibility of Malaysia. However, to support its investigation, Malaysia requested that Australia lead the search for the missing aircraft and participate in the investigation as an accredited representative.

[WR269 367]

So again, I do not understand your point about meddling. You are making the mabe54's (and my) point.

 

 

 

 

 

The information I posted came from an interview of Air Chief Marshal Houston that is posted on the JACC website... hence the quotes.

 

 

Let me tell you a little bit more about that. Under the Chicago convention, the accident investigation into the disappearance of MH370 is the responsibility of Malaysia. However, to support its investigation, Malaysia requested that Australia lead the search for the missing aircraft and participate in the investigation as an accredited representative.

And Houston is correct. You are confusing "search" with "investigation"

 

Australia does not need to participate in the investigation of the causes for the crash but the ATSB has been asked to participate. The investigation is the responsibility of Malaysia.

Malaysia requested Australia lead the search as it falls inside Australian SAR jurisdiction.

 

Sent from my Mobile thing

[Great Ozzie 101]

You are confusing "search" with "investigation"

 

Kind of hard to have an "investigation" without a "search" first. 

 

And having worked in law enforcement as an accident investigator... I am somewhat familiar with the difference between the two terms.

 

 

 

Malaysia requested Australia lead the search as it falls inside Australian SAR jurisdiction.

 

Sorry, I do not know the specifics of the Chicago Convention and how it works... only what the Air Chief Marshal said...

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

So again, I do not understand your point about meddling.  You are making the mabe54's (and my) point.

By meddling I meant getting involved when not asked to. When it come to disasters or SAR pretty much no one sends in assets unless requested by a nation if needed. I've never seen the USA or anyone else send in Assets anywhere in the world unless they were requested, and they are not always requested for various reasons, even when they may have the better equipment.

 

Team America: World Police comes to mind....Funny movie but reality is that just doesn't happen.

[tf51d 284]

 

 

I've never seen the USA or anyone else send in Assets anywhere in the world unless they were requested, and they are not always requested for various reasons, even when they may have the better equipment.

 

In most cases though, the US will offer assistance, before it is asked for. In some cases, for various reasons (Usually political), the offer is rejected.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

In most cases though, the US will offer assistance, before it is asked for. In some cases, for various reasons (Usually political), the offer is rejected.

 

What I recall most was with the Christchurch Earthquake. What happened was a lot of countries sent requests for assistance, which is natural as we are all human and we all want to help during a disaster. The NZ Government goes down into the bunker where they have the National Crisis Management Centre. In that bunker they will declare a state of emergency, assess the situation and use the best resources available to them. First priority is utilizing domestic assets, civil defence and NZ military.

 

As for foreign requests, in this case with the USA they have Urban Search and Rescue California Task Force 2, which was requested to help and sent over, they were a great asset to have. Australia sent over Urban search and rescue, Singapore sent over a DART team, China, Taiwan and Wales sent over some urban SAR as well

 

Their was a backlash because many other nations offered assistance and was refused. Reason being is a disaster is best managed with the best resources available, as well as time it takes to receive those assets. One nation in particular that made some noise was Canada. They offered assistance, people called upon the Canadian Government to help by sending in a DART team, and was declined by New Zealand. Reality is it gets to a point where too much will hamper the mission so many assets will be declined from all over the world.

 

From what I learned living in a smaller nation during a Natural Disaster is a lot of people want to help, but reality is too much help is actually counter-productive, so not everyone with good intentions can get involved. Sorry Canada didn't get to help, but Canada has never had a major earthquake or any major funding in those areas, so those would be the reasons why. People shouldn't get offended when their requests to help are turned down. Sometime the USA will be turned down to, it all depends on the situation.

[Great Ozzie 101]

 

 

From day three I kept saying: Call the Americans! Get their Navy. They are always at hand and happy to help. Don't loose that month. But no, they were not called in time.

 

To address your comment mabe, here's a press release dated 9 March from the U.S. Embassy in Malaysia.

 

http://malaysia.usembassy.gov/news_mh370-030914.html

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Here's a pretty good summary of the challenges of acoustics and pinger location:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/11/tech/innovation/mh-370-underwater-sound/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[mabe54 17]

That reminded me of the old PC game "Red Storm Rising". I learned a lot about those thermal layers. As per Navy regulation, I wish I could tell you but them I would have to k... you all. Love that slogan...LOL

 

Cheers,