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Guest JimThePilot

A Costly Dinner

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Two articles in the most recent (January) issue of FLYING magazine riveted my attention.In the article "a costly dinner" Peter Garrison analyzes one of the most talked about GA accident in recent history - a March 2001 crash of Gulfstream III on the approach to Aspen airport. All people aboard belonged to the rich-and-famous crowd and were heading for some expensive dinner/celebration. They all perished barely 1/2 mile from the edge of the runway. The aviation related facts of this accident are mind boggling. Highly recommended 3 pages of reading.Another article in the same issue describes Garmin 1000 cockpit - essentially a fully integrated glass cockpit by Garmin which is actually quite affordable. It is so affordable that even Diamond DA40 (or Cessna Skylane) will have one. That's exactly the same cockpit that Cessna's $2.3 mln Mustang will feature. The author claims that this product generates excitment in the aviation community that he hasn't seen in the last 28 years. Truly revolutionary product.I highly recommend the January issue of FLYING.Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

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Hi Michael,Yes, the "costly dinner" was indeed a great article (I subscribe to this magazine). I wonder just how many busts there are of MDA's and DH's, in the name of just getting in, that don't receieve this sort of attention because they don't crash?A little bit like overtaking on the wrong side of the road around a blind bend. You get away with it a few times and it becomes acceptable- until it bites you, and does so really badly!Bruce.

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>subscribe to this magazine). I wonder just how many busts>there are of MDA's and DH's, in the name of just getting in,>that don't receieve this sort of attention because they don't>crash?Hi Bruce,This got to be the mother of all "MDA busts". They ended up (while flying) *below* the runway elevation.Michael J.

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>Hi Michael,>>Yes, the "costly dinner" was indeed a great article (I>subscribe to this magazine). I wonder just how many busts>there are of MDA's and DH's, in the name of just getting in,>that don't receieve this sort of attention because they don't>crash?Every Insturment rated pilot I know has. Take my local airport. 2 DME out on the LOC we have a 400' antenna, keeps the minimums to 700'. Most pilots operating in and out of there drop to 400' after 2DME. Not that I would say it's smart to do. It's NEVER smart to break any rules in aviation. The other thing you forgot to mention (not sure if it was in that article, I havn't read it yet) is that the crew had been flying more then the allowable time. All my flying is part 91 and I've pulled 16-18 hours day's, and let me tell you, the last thing you want to do is fly any approch at the end of the day. Make that one at Aspen with the weather at minimums and your looking for trouble. They where flying part 135 (charter) and had been flying all day. So add all those things together and the chance for an accident is there. Never take any risk in aviation. Corporate wise why would you want to? Doesn't matter to you if the boss is late, certianlly isn't any thing you want to risk your life for.

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>The>other thing you forgot to mention (not sure if it was in that>article, I havn't read it yet) is that the crew had been>flying more then the allowable time.Maybe you are confusing this with some other accident but in this particular case the crew certainly could not have been 'tired'. They only flew 2 hours in the last 24 hours before accident. The issue was not that they were tired after a long day but that they departed LAX 40 min behind planned departure time (since customer did not show up) which prevented them from arriving at Aspen during daylight hours. Michael J.

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Really? I could have sworn this was a big issue in a Pro Pilot article about them bust crew time. I'll read the article in a sec.

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No, not a crew time bust. Part 135 jets were prohibited from landing at ASE after daylight, and due to the late arrival of the VIP(s) they would not have had time to do a missed and try again. The VIP exploded when an alternate was mentioned, and happened to be in the cockpit at crash time (putting further pressure on the crew to land). The FO never even challenged the Captain's decision to bust minimums (as required), nor was there an arrival briefing either. They obviously intended to land no matter what.Bruce.

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Just goes to show why one of the companies I fly for has a rule that regardless of how late the customer arrives or how much they offer in extra's (cash, etc), if we cannot be on the ground in Aspen 30 minutes before sunset, we don't take off.I have had passengers call me every name in the book and threaten to have me fired because I refused to attempt a night approach into Aspen just so they could make it to the club on time. Needless to say, they get on their cell phone, call the office only to be told that it's not my fault, the dispatcher gave them an absolute wheels-up time that they did not adhere to so it's their own fault that they are not going to be there.Aspen has got to be the mother of all approaches even in VFR conditions when you

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>and it was VFR, I didn't feel comfortable so broke off and>went back over the hump to Denver. Great post. Actually there is a very good alternate for Aspen - at Rifle. It was their alternate. I looked on the map and it seems like a max 90 min drive (accounting for windy road) from Rifle to Aspen. They could have had their expensive dinner albeit with a slight delay. But they probably could not imagined anything less than 'VIP arrival' - short limo drive from the airport to their villa. Michael J.

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I guess it was the Wilke-Barre Scraton crash I'm thinking about, or is it? It was also a GIII, and I believe it was operated buy a casino. Any one know what I'm talking about? Havn't been into Aspen yet, I live in the NE. Might be going out this summer though. Must feel weird comming in at 200 GS in a piston.

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Hi Michael,I just caught this post.I agree with you. This month's Magazine was IMHO, one of the best in quite a while.The Garmin 1000 article was awesome. Of course I did find one itty bitty peck. In the article, it says that the 1000 is cost efficient, since it costs about the same to replace all the current instrumentation.If that is the case, then Diamond is like the Music CD producers. Taking all the profit when the costs go down or remain the same. The Diamond rep said there will be a $25,000 Premium on the 1000 over the standard IFR configuration. Why the premium other than gauging, since the cost is about the same according to the Author?But that garmin 1000 is the sweetest thing to come down to GA in a long time.I wonder if the weight is lower than the other instruments as well. Could boost useful load over current configurations, an always mindful item.I read more articles in this issue than I have over the last year. Great Job by Flying.Regards,Joehttp://aboutpolitics.net/images/bannerav.gif.About Politics.net - FORUMShttp://pub207.ezboard.com/bpoliticsgivemel...tyorgivemedeath.Contribute to the Richard Harvey Scholarship Fund.http://www.avsim.com/pages/scholarship.shtml

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>In the article, it says that the 1000 is>cost efficient, since it costs about the same to replace all>the current instrumentation.Well, I think the "same" was just the editorial hyperbole. If you consider that before you would have to chip in $250,000 for a similar setup then $25,000 sounds indeed like almost "nothing".>I wonder if the weight is lower Yeah, they did not say anything about the weight. I would be curious too.Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

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excuse me my ignorance, but why the high approach speed? Altitude?Vince

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>excuse me my ignorance, but why the high approach speed?>Altitude?huh ?high approach speed ? Who is saying that ? :-hmmmMichael J.

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CatalinaFLyer:"Aspen has got to be the mother of all approaches even in VFR conditions when you

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Thanks - that clears up things a bit :-)I wondered why I didn't find anything on it on the charts.... which are an interesting read by the way (got the old Jeppesen set released for FS2K2) - scary enough by themselves not to need extra restrictions ;-)Vince

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