Jeroen: I'd suggest that you check what Peter does on a day-to-day basis before berating him for not knowing what happens on ATC frequencies... ;-)However, in this particular case, I agree with some points from both of you. Like Peter, I would like to see FS improved in terms of procedures (especially ATC. Can we have some non US please next time, MS? Most of us don't live in North America...) and navaids. My preference would not be to have everything included, but to have the option to adjust the set - it's the "locked in" functionality of FS's navdata that I don't like. You can't add to it or adjust it, which happens all the time in real life.That said, I don't agree with the point that FS should be the equivalent of a $2000 sim. I've had this debate already with someone telling me that it only becomes a hobby when you spend thousands of Pounds/Dollars/Euros on it and that's tripe. If you want to expand it, you can, if you don't want to or can't afford to, you don't have to. You can still have fun with it in any case.As for the two-pack approach, had it made commerical sense, MS would have continued it. It obviously didn't, because it was canned after one iteration. I can't see it coming back unless something really dramatic happens like a 64-bit version for those who can afford it and a 32-bit version for the rest of us. I would expect MS to hold to one product, and thus one revenue stream, to maximise what they make on it, but that's just my opinion.Anyway, I think that right now, they have the balance about right. Make the sim better in terms of flight dynamics, weather, terrain and systems by all means. Please make the ATC not just American and the database adjustable (buying updates from MS, or Jeppesen themselves, would probably work fine for that!) but don't go overboard on the complexity side and price it out of the market for all but the most ardent users.Ian P.

This is not a game. It is a hobby, which means you can spend as little or as much as you want. If you bought a radio control plane and a radio, would you say that is enough if you found you really enjoyed it and wanted to experience more? If you bought a small model train set, would you say that is enough? HAM radio? Etc? Etc?Thus the $50 game is only the start and what you add in is up to you, not Microsoft to provide it. If Microsoft included every add-on now available with the next version, would you be happy? No,no no! You would still want more. It is what YOU make it, it is YOUR hobby and you get to make it into what ever you want. Heck we even have ships and cars you can drive in it. Making what we want is what I love about it.

Peter,You are the one accepting defeat.I haven't given up on FS2004 and I don't accept that it can't do complicated procedures. I have to learn how to make the game respond and most of the time I am successful.A simple question, how much are you pushing FS?Do you make it give you holding patterns?Do you fly published approaches other than the default ILS?Do you change the flight plans to use realistic routing based on real world procedures and charts?From reading your reply, one would assume that a pilot does not learn which DP/SID will be used until after takeoff!! I'm sure that's not what you meant, and I could have been a little clearer.Lining up for takeoff, a pilot in the US might hear "Cleard for takeoff and Hubbard Five departure - contact Fort Worth Center on xxx.xxx"Or she might hear - "Cleared for takeoff and departure as filed" which is more common.I would like the ATC to say things like "Cleared direct to BRONS" rather than "Turn left to heading 265". It would be a lot easier for me to maintain a heading if I knew the waypoint the ATC wanted me to fly toward.On the other hand, that would scare the heck out of a newbie. I've heard more than one real world GA pilot in near panic when approaching the KDFW Class B airspace - when given clearance to a waypoint and the pilot doesn't know where it is located.The ATC is understanding with the guys who say they don't know and ask for a heading. The center really hate the guys who try to fake it and pretend they know what they should be doing.But when I'm on an approach, I use the default GPS to see the procedure I'm supposed to fly on the display, the waypoints to hit - all to supplement the approach plate I have in my hand.Second topic - FS has the ability to do regional voice packs - there is one for Mexico, but the people who made the voice pack did so in Spanish rather than Spanish accented Engligh.I think that's one area where MS is disappointed in the add-on community, the lack of voice pack developed.It would not be something where different regions would access different voice packs - you would have to ensure the correct one was in the game folder before starting - but the instructions and methodology are available if anyone wants to do the work.Third topic - I really wished MS did have a $100 version of FS available, which used a more developed ATC with more realistic terms. There would have to be some way to ensure that people did not share files to make the Standard version as fully capable as the Pro version.That's what happened with the FS2002 version, the Standard sold very well, the Pro well below expectations, and people traded / shared / e-mailed the extra files to friends, etc.Before MS would do it again, I'd expect them to develope some fool proof way to make sure that people could not enhance the Standard version by copying files from the Professional version.Really looking back on the original post, it appears to me that the main issue is that the voicepack is dumbed down for novices. I'll agree with that view.Most of the arrival procedures are in the program, especially in Europe where the distance is so short. But the ATC does use only headings and almost never procedure names.A final question - have you communicated with Microsoft and given them very specific complaints?They do listen and 10,000 words of agreement on this forum will have less impact than one e-mail to Microsoft support.

The real question here is not how much is the sim, but how much can the hobby cost?I would estimate that I have spent around $3500 to $4500 to purchase MSFSCOF, all my add-on software, hardware, and computer components to get a smooth running fairly realistic simulation of flying. That doesn't count past version of MSFS and older computers that were built to run these packeges.So the cost of the hobby is definately more than just buying the flight simulator software itself for the truly hard core flight sim user.Happy Simming!Scott :-)

>During slow hours you'll often hear controllers tell pilots "direct XXX" where XXX is the endpoint of their SID.

Hiya Pete.How's it going? I remember you from a while back. Flew Senecas right? Meh.I have nothing else to contribute, sorry. Just a bit of FS nostalgia is all.

Total addons + FS price = not very much :-lol I purchased a couple of addons, but that keeps me busy!

I don't want to publicly admit how much my sim is now. But even before my first add-on a few years ago, it was still a sim that exceeded $1000--as I designed my computer system around it at the time.As for the airport, looks like College Park in College Park MD to me. It's been in operation since 1909--the world's oldest continuously operated airport. -John

I would like to see Microsoft put about 70% of their effort into creating a good, extensible simulation platform and about 30% into creating a reasonable product on it.I think it is right that the product should be modest in scope and reasonably priced to encourage a large "ecosystem" for the enhancement industry to operate in.The platform however, should provide common infrastructure, such as common, standard file and database formats, enhanced tools for creating instumentation and aircraft models and enhanced and preferrably replaceable flight models. I could imagine the need for a model that is based on the current parameter approach and another that is based on aerodynamic effects. It might make it possible to better accommodate the very wide variety of aircraft available.I would personally like something that models the oddballs better - like the asymetric Boomerang or the twin-engine, single prop LearFan, etc.regards,Alan.

I've spent about $10,000 on simulators, all told. None of it on Microsoft Flight Sim. It was combat flight sims, like Falcon4, Rainbow 6, Hornet 3.0, and driving sims like GPL, GTR2002, Toca2 and NFS-1 (first was more simulator than arcade, oddly enough).You wanna REALLY loose money to a hobby? Take up racing. Heck, it's easy to burn $20,000 per year on that, without even trying. If you really put some effort into wasting money on racing, you can top a million/year in many series.This hobby really isn't that expensive. Just look at recreational drug users...now THAT is expensive, not only on the pocket book, but on one's life, and society's cost.

Hi,Lets get one thing clear......The majority of Flightsim customers have no idea what so ever about the availibility of addons. They don

I started simming in 1981. I hate to think how much I have spent over the years-and frankly don't want to know-I bought all the sims and all the add ons .....I started flying for real in 1989-and again I hate to think how much I have spent and frankly don't want to know. (It is a lot more than the simmming!).Quality of life and enjoyment-100% from both. When I am on my death bed I won't be counting $$$$-but I will remember...the quality...Nothing better than flight simming and real flying-and a few other things....I feel sorry for those that will have gone thru life missing both.....Who cares how much I have spent-$50 or $5000-I have paid much more over my lifetime for many things that have brought less pleasure and quality...Flying -still a huge bargain in the virtual world and the real world-go for it! Who cares what I have spent for it-quality is all that will count in the end.. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

GeofI Match your sentiments. You cant take it with you and have to do what you have to do in life :-)Its strange though how the emphasis has changed in the forums. A few years ago Payware was the hate target and freeware the sacred.There were damning threads if anyone dared try to charge for their labours.Now freeware takes a back seat and high quality payware items roll out daily some costing up to $50.You are spoilt for choice of must haves ;-)I hope when I stop flying for whatever reason or when I retire that the MSFS of the day will match what I and you see to such an extent that I will be able to revisit many of my old real world flights with duplicated weather and challenges to a level of accuracy unheard of.Peter

StaffanYou have a good point here. Maybe in the next version of FS there should be links to all the major fs sites on the discs encouraging people to use the creativity and expandability of MSFS.Peter

"Its strange though how the emphasis has changed in the forums. A few years ago Payware was the hate target and freeware the sacred."As they say, you get what you pay for. While there are a few exceptions, on the whole, there is a large gap as far as what you get when you pay for it and what you get for free. I think we have become much more discriminate in what we demand from add-ons and that is why we have seen such a proliferation of the add-on market. Personally I think it is great,for the most part. Since there is competetion in the market and people are making money, it means that you see higher and higher quality in the add-ons available, though because of the demand, prices have also risen some. It also means flightsimming is thriving and can only get better.