Hi all,

Can someone tell me how the star pigot should be handled as per the star chart in the link below. My proatcx just clears me for the approach and my a319/777 always follows the holding pattern first, and it always shows the holding pattern on the map.

http://www.pilotnav.com/airport/EGNX

anyone else experienced this?

 

thanks

Ollie

The Pigot STAR shows Pigot as the clearance limit, the point at which you shouldn't go further without ATC clearence, hence the hold at Pigot. As Proatc has cleared you for the approach, manually remove the pigot hold from the FMC and the aircraft will continue past Pigot and fly the full procedure.

Eugene

Thanks for the reply.

 

So in the aerosoft and pmdg 777, it shows them as waypoints.

 

Is it just a matter of deleting the waypoints from the flightplan?

Hmmm, tried last night and proatcx still wants me to fly the holding route

Is it just a matter of deleting the waypoints from the flightplan?

 

 

You remove the hold from the FMC, not the waypoint. I'm not familiar with ProATC, but I know from the forums it struggles with some aspects of ATC. 

Eugene

Thanks for the reply.

 

Thats my point, the holding points translates into the fmc fron the star as waypoints, not a holding pattern.

 

Is this just how the aerosoft, pmdg and eaglesoft view and interpret the navdata?

I use the iFly 737, the last few waypoints before Pigot show:

 

VELAG

UPDUK

PIGOT

Hold at 

PIGOT

 

I use the DEL function on the FMC to remove "HOLD AT PIGOT"

This creates a discontinuity as it wants to know where to go, which is a bit of a problem, as there are no convenient waypoints on the STAR. But the next position on the STAR assuming I'm not holding at Pigot, is the DTY 007 radial, 28 miles, so I created a waypoint there (DTY007/28) and put that in the FMC to close the discontinuity. How LNAV will cope with it is debatable, 

The point at which ATC removes the holding restriction is key, as it effects greatly what happens next, but I suspect in real life once the Pigot hold is cancelled, radar vectors would be used.

I think the main problem is getting ProATC to cancel the hold?

Eugene

 

Yeah there is that however i dont seem to have the holds either in the pmdg 777, or aerosoft a319 unless im missing something.

 

Do you fly the upduk and velag then as it seems to unecessarilly double back on itself.

 

The key here though as you say is getting a direct vector from proatcx as opposed to following the star to the letter

Do you fly the upduk and velag then as it seems to unecessarilly double back on itself.

 

 

The reason it wants you to go to UPDUK is the enable you to do a direct entry into the PIGOT hold (187 deg Left Hand). I've tried this STAR in the iFly 737 and the AeroWinx 747, neither of them seem to know what the make of it. If I delete the PIGOT hold, the only option in the FMC to clear the discontinuity by going direct to the Center Fix of runway 27, about 7 miles from touchdown. All those other DTY/25 DTY/27 DTY/33 etc disappear when the hold is removed. The only way I can fly it is using HDG select to follow the magenta line, and manually follow the vertical profile.

It's a weird one!

Eugene

Hi Ollie.

 

I'm an FR F/O and I've operated out of EMA for the last 18 months.

 

With regards to this approach I the only time I've managed to get anywhere near PIGOT is due to weather! 80% of the time you can expect to land runway 27 due to the prevailing South Westerly wind. Flying out of South London you will typically be cleared direct to VELAG and after contact with EMA APP you'll be given radar vectors after VELAG.

 

For runway 27 after VELAG create a point off the CF27 (CF27130/3). This will give you accurate track mileage under Radar Vectors.

 

For runway 09 useful points you can enter in the FMC to update your profile under Radar Vectors is after VELAG insert LESTA which is just North of VELAG (conventionality and approximately under the city of Leicester) and then a point just south of the CF09. (example insert CF09180/3)

 

If you were required to fly the full procedure in reality simply deleting the hold at PIGOT will cause problems for LNAV. The STAR is designed to initially get you to hold at PIGOT, not fly to PIGOT and immediately exit the hold.

 

If Radar Vectors is unavailable on a nice day we would ask for a visual approach, on not such a nice day the transition via EME or EMW depending ehich runway is in use.

 

Sam Breese.

The hold is not a mandatory hold... it's there for if you don't have further clearance from ATC and at that point, you the pilot should institute a hold at PIGOT. The data does not contain a hold, and that is correct. It is expected that ATC will clear you.

 

I have verified this with real world ARINC data, it does not implement the hold at PIGOT.

The UK AIP decribes the STARS as:
 

PIGOT 1H Arrival via L10, M605 ( FL80 and below ), Q41, L9 to DTY VOR continue on DTY VOR R017 to VELAG continue to UPDUK then turn left to intercept DTY VOR R007 to PIGOT
 
PIGOT 1J Arrival via M189-N57, T420 to  WELIN  continue on  TNT VOR  R150 to  VELAG  . At  VELAG  turn right onto  DTY VOR  to  UPDUK  then turn left to intercept  DTY VOR  R008 to  PIGOT   R017         FL220  by  HEMEL 

 

 
The actual words on the STAR are
 

 

WARNING Do not procede beyond PIGOT without ATC clearance

 

Cheers all. Its a tricky one but enjoying working it out.

Been using the pmdg and aerosoft but mainly the es citation x. Good learning for the use of the fmc.

 

Interesting to try this next on vatsim to see how the controller vectors me