Guys, I downloaded all 150 (whatever the exact number) pages of PMDG 737 and A320 (Airbus by other party), read it all, and that kept me going. Thas was enough to understand all other aircraft as well, all I had to do is read the systems and FMS specifics pertaining to that specific aircraft and watch some videos on youtube.

So I kept flying for a while... I input waypoints, I input perf data so I use LNAV and VNAV functions in flight and that works ok. One thing I never did (and have a difficulty figuring out, although knowing it is something simple) is the SID and STAR inputting, default ATC got me on course. I know where to sellect the SID and STAR in the FMS of various aircraft, what I don't know is which SID/STAR to select and how to activate it properly. Tutorials and videos don't expend on it because I assume they assume you use charts and know which one to select for a given runway. Is that correct?

 

Question 1:

on arrival/departure page I see multiple sid/star choices, obviously some of them belong to the runways different than those I am taking off from or landing on.

 

Question2: 

once we figuresd "question 1", how do I physically insert it into the FMS plan and activate it?

I'd like to practice that with 737NGX, thus posting here specifically. 

Please expend in your answer if the matter can't be explained in two words, once we figure it for 737NGX I'll be able to SID/STARing with any other aircraft I assume.

This should be very easy for you to explain.

Alexander Zar

 

 

 

 

This should be very easy for you to explain.

 

Have you flown Tutorials #1 and #2? They go over this.

I did, it didn't work out well -))) It inserted some very weird crazy paths with acute 130-160 deg changes in course, taking me to nobody knows where...

But that was at the start of my learning some time ago, I will try it again having a bit more experience now.

The most confusing thing in this all business.

 

 

The most confusing thing in this all business.

 

Just think of SIDs and STARs as miniature routes.

Figuring out which terminal procedure to select seems like a black art until the light goes on.  It is easier to help you if I knew which part of the world (Europe, USA or other) you are getting started in because the terminology and naming conventions are different.  You mention that there are different procedures for each runway so I assume you are European.  I recommend you open an account at EuroControl (free public access but you have to register) here:  http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/publicuser/public/pu/login.jsp

 

Find your location of interest and start browsing the different SIDS and you'll start to see a pattern where each one is associated with departure runway and fix. Similar associations exist for the STARS. The nice thing about the FMS data entry is once you select a departure runway, for example, only the SIDS associated with that runway are available but more on that in the Intro and Tutorials.

 

Finally, another good tip is to check out flightaware.com or similar online flight tracking service to see what the professionals are using. This will help to shed a little more light on the issue.  I am sure Kyle has a lot of good info in his video, he gets a lot of thanks from others learning this hobby. I'm too old school to watch a how-to video on anything, I need to read it LOL.

 

 

I'm too old school to watch a how-to video on anything, I need to read it LOL.

 

Oddly enough, that's still how I am. I don't usually watch videos. People always comment on the many volumes of leather bound books on my rich mahogany book shelves (in all honesty, most of them are my roommates, but I do have an entire shelf of aviation books. It's just how I learn, I guess...

Ok, a first success, I flew a STAR for the first time. 

These "firsts" indeed always open up a whole new dimension to FS experience. 

 

 

 

Find your location of interest and start browsing the different SIDS and you'll start to see a pattern where each one is associated with departure runway and fix. Similar associations exist for the STARS. The nice thing about the FMS data entry is once you select a departure runway, for example, only the SIDS associated with that runway are available but more on that in the Intro and Tutorials.

 

The thing is, as I just discovered, the filtered STARs next to selected runway (there were only two for departure from  KIAD 1L i experimented with) were not yet the STARs, but a link to a whole series of stars which were a dozen or so. So you click on one of these two "pre-STARs" (pardon my terminology) and you are being taken to a page with a dozen of STARs to select from. 

So basically I randomly chose the one that fits into the map on my ND display and clear the discontinuity. Next step I assume is to go from random selections to specific ones based on charts and transitions. Will watch the video posted by Kyle.

This is always hard and time consuming at first, but a great reward once figured out.

 

 

The thing is, as I just discovered, the filtered STARs next to selected runway (there were only two for departure from  KIAD 1L i experimented with) were not yet the STARs, but a link to a whole series of stars which were a dozen or so. So you click on one of these two "pre-STARs" (pardon my terminology) and you are being taken to a page with a dozen of STARs to select from. 

 

haha - they're SID/STARs (first part) and transitions (second part).

 

 

 

So basically I randomly chose the one that fits into the map on my ND display and clear the discontinuity.

 

I think it might be best to grab routes from FlightAware and see how they do it. Dispatchers and flight planners intentionally plan the route to link up with the SID/STAR transitions. Never clear a discontinuity unless you know, for absolute certain, that it should be cleared. I explain this in the video.

 

 

 

This is always hard and time consuming at first, but a great reward once figured out.

 

Definitely - don't forget to sign your posts, please. Thanks!

 

 

I randomly chose the one that fits into the map on my ND display and clear the discontinuity.

 

As soon as you mentioned IAD I knew you'd get assistance from Kyle since that is his sandbox.  As Kyle suggested, browse the flightplans in actual use on flightaware.com and they also have current charts for each US location.

 

The transitions also mentioned by Kyle are easily seen on the charts.  The basic STAR will connect the enroute structure to the terminal, usually from a fix or navaid that is in an enroute route to a fix or navaid that is in the terminal airspace. The STAR transitions extend the STAR from that first fix to one or more to provide additional "flows" into the STAR.  Getting from the STAR to an IAP (Instrument Approach Procedure) usually involves vectors in the US but occasionally the STAR will connect directly to the IAF (Initial Approach Fix).

 

If you are new to the basics of IFR navigation I recommend you download the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook from here: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/ .  There is also an Instrument Procedures Handbook but I consider the former the IFR bible for US pilots.

 

 

As soon as you mentioned IAD I knew you'd get assistance from Kyle since that is his sandbox.

 

haha - true. It definitely helps to have local knowledge.

 

Oh, and more like snowglobe at the moment:

Will be labeled "Route" on the right hand of the page for each flight. I get almost all my flight

plans from Flightaware. Particularly all the Southwest flights I do. I always run real world routes.

And most will have a "decode" page you can click on to get a more detailed view of the route

with all it's waypoints. I also get my cruise altitudes from those. Sometimes you won't see that

on a same day flight, but if you go to a previous days flight for the same route, it will show it.

Guys, the problem is every time I look/search for SID/STAR tutorials, I am presented the concept (what it is and what it is for) rather than the physical step by step instructions with how it is loaded to FMS. Ans so is the video by Kyle I just watched.

There are tutorials on utube but they are of no help because the SIDs are selected given the guy already knew what SID to select before making the video.

 

Ok, I did another flight and did both SID and STAR (random select). By the way, yesterday when I said I tried a STAR I actually meant a SID, my mistake. Obviously it is the SID you try first. OK back to my flight. It was PMDG 777 KJFK-EGLL. 

Departure was off runway 31L, some SIDs took me the opposite to runway heading direction (!!) I was assuming it is to be filtered as mentioned, fist select a runway then a SID. I checked few more SIDs, more or less they are all similar but some were "runway-heading" so I took one of these.

Two problems with these:

1. they were to take me too far off course (as far as Boston) so I had to "clean it up" a bit by selecting "direct to" and removing few last waypoints of the SID. Yeah, dirty work, I know.

2. Although a runway heading, it was almost immediately taking me to a 90deg turn not giving me a time to climb (see picture-1). Kinda disappointing because this almost messed up my nice take off.

So as you see, there are problems.... and it is not the concept. Let the concept and charts be a second step, right now we have to learn how to physically select and load a proper SID, and properly insert it into a flightplan via an FMS.

 

Arrival to EGLL 9L, see for your self... (see pictures 2 and 3, have fun -)))

What's the logic? I could just intercept a glideslope and land. Instead, it took me to a half-"8"-curve. Unless that's the way... let me know please.

I did fly this STAR because I was curious about how the STAR does it, strange and funny but it worked very well taking me to the runway. Only thing is it seems you can't activate an APR mode until the STAR is thru its last waypoint and is taking you already onto a runway's heading.

I am not able to upload pictures here, but you guys must have an idea of how that was with the sid and star.

 

 

Ok, I did another flight and did both SID and STAR (random select). By the way, yesterday when I said I tried a STAR I actually meant a SID, my mistake. Obviously it is the SID you try first. OK back to my flight. It was PMDG 777 KJFK-EGLL. 
Departure was off runway 31L, some SIDs took me the opposite to runway heading direction (!!) I was assuming it is to be filtered as mentioned, fist select a runway then a SID. I checked few more SIDs, more or less they are all similar but some were "runway-heading" so I took one of these.
Two problems with these:
1. they were to take me too far off course (as far as Boston) so I had to "clean it up" a bit by selecting "direct to" and removing few last waypoints of the SID. Yeah, dirty work, I know.
2. Although a runway heading, it was almost immediately taking me to a 90deg turn not giving me a time to climb (see picture-1). Kinda disappointing because this almost messed up my nice take off.
So as you see, there are problems.... and it is not the concept. Let the concept and charts be a second step, right now we have to learn how to physically select and load a proper SID, and properly insert it into a flightplan via an FMS.

 

You're honestly doing this the wrong way. Aviation is a complex beast. You really have to sit down and try to learn things.

 

As I mentioned in my videos, there are multiple types of SIDs and STARs. Not a single one of JFK's SIDs is going to be good for a beginner. Not only are they complicated, most of them require some sort of vectors, which, unless you actually read the charts, and know the general traffic flow, you'll be hopelessly lost.

 

It's not really a complex issue. You're just making it worse by trying to barrel through it all without taking the time to sit down and understand it first. There's a reason all real pilots sit down for at least some of ground school before they get into a plane. There's a reason the FAA (and other regulatory bodies) require that ground work: you need to learn some of these skills and pieces of knowledge when not moving 300 miles per hour.

 

Please don't get me wrong - I remember being in your shoes. The difference for me was that all I had was a book and charts to learn on my own without the internet or YouTube (now I sound like my grandfather).

 

I think you're getting confused by trying to pick the SID/STAR by pressing buttons on the CDU and looking at the nav display to see the result instead of looking at the chart first to know what you want, and then find that in the FMC.

 

 

 

That's just my take on it, though. They're really not that tough to understand in the end, as long as you take it slowly and come to grips with them. Right now, you're drinking from a fire hose while trying to swim in a pool.

Wow, trying to learn SIDs at KJFK; that's tough. Most days I think you'd depart 30L/R on the JFK1 with a clearance for the CANARSIE CLIMB with vectors to BETTE thence as filed.

 

Come on down to KDFW where we have real pretty RNAV SIDs from all N/S runways to all points of the compass, and you can't beat the simplicity of the RNAV STARs going to KLAS or KLAX that take you right to the IAF. Keep it simple.

 

The FMS buttonology for selecting procedures is very basic and included in the Tutorial, but first you have to understand which procedure you are going to select and why. That's why Kyle is suggesting some work before pleasure.

Kyle has a video on youtube that's called "A guide to routing" I think you should watch that.