On the fix page do you enter the ICAO airport and insert a 25nm ring for the MSA? Because i've seen charts where for the MSA circle its related to a VOR or NDB. So for example if your at an airport your origin and you have a MSA with the VOR in the circle, lets say its called TLA would you use that for the fix page for the MSA or still use the airport ICAO for the MSA? And also for the DEST?

 

I know for distant rings to the runway i enter the RWXX from the legs page to the fix page. But i'm just unsure about the MSA.

 

What is your procedure or correct procedure?

Mate, you ask the very same questions I ask myself, sometimes! Weird...

 

Anyway, I'm not sure on the details regarding this, but my standard practice is to draw the ring for MSA awareness around the point/beacon of reference on the chart... Whether that is the airport itself, a VOR or an NDB.

 

I.e. I draw a 25nm ring around the AD VOR when flying the RNAV RNP-M to YPAD RWY23.

 

I also draw course lines where required; or if I'm feeling lazy, I just use the highest MSA for the entire 25nm area.

 

Hope that helps, but if you're anything like me, you probably want an answer from a practicing pilot

 

Brian Nellis

Surely it's obvious to use whatever reference is used on the chart. If the MSA is centred on the airport use that. If on a nav aid use that. I could be wrong but I don't think it's a procedure as such, just a helpful visual aid.

Hope that helps, but if you're anything like me, you probably want an answer from a practicing pilot

 

Haha yeh is matt about ?

 

Surely it's obvious to use whatever reference is used on the chart. If the MSA is centred on the airport use that. If on a nav aid use that. I could be wrong but I don't think it's a procedure as such, just a helpful visual aid.

 

Thanks kevin, i think i did see a NG DVD where the pilots used the ICAO at Svalbard but the Sector Safe was the NDB. Kinda got me thinking.

 

However if i'm getting ATC vectors i do certainly check my MRVA for my most likely route to my IF

 

 

What is your procedure or correct procedure?

 

Honestly, I don't enter anything. A couple things to note, though:

• MSA is referenced to whatever position is listed. If it's an airport, it's the airport. If it's a VOR, it's the VOR. If it's a VOR called TLA, you'd enter the VOR called TLA on the fix page. The MSA is defined off of that listed point. If the navaid is located on the airport, the difference is likely negligible (thus the Svalbard procedure in the video), though I'd still use whatever is listed on the chart.
   
• MSA is an advisory altitude - of all the altitudes on the chart, it carries the least amount of weight. The information is basic, at best. Go look at an IFR Enroute Chart. See the big brown numbers in each grid square that you never noticed? Pretty much the same concept: if you're not following the direction of some sort of navaid, you can use those numbers as minimum altitudes for that area. Most of the time, though, under the direction of some navaid, so 99% of the time, you ignore them. No sense in trying to display all of that info on the ND, though. More importantly: ATC minimum vectoring altitudes (MVAs - not listed on any chart) supersede any charted MSA.
   
• Flying the procedure and staying on course is your primary concern. Reference the MSA if you find yourself out of position (off of the procedure somehow).

 

 

As an example - I'm flying into BCB on the Runway 12 LOCDME:

• The MSA is 5700 for the entire area depicted in the chart (TEC is on the airfield). I make a mental note of this and carry on.
• I'm routed over ZOOMS and cleared for the approach. From ZOOMS to PATDA, despite the MSA being 5700 in the area, I can remain at 6000 because that altitude supersedes the MSA for that radial off of LWB.
• At PATDA, I turn onto the Runway 12 LOC course and drop to 5200 until JUBOP, this time because I'm on the guidance of the Runway 12 LOC.
• At JUBOP, I can drop down to 4200 until IGFIL.
• A few miles prior to IGFIL though, lightning strikes somewhere in Blacksburg and knocks out power to the area. The airport, not being a constant power facility, loses its LOC power, and I lose my guidance.

It's a little too early to just assume I can just make my turn to the west back to PATDA (the missed approach is based off of me beginning it at the runway threshold), however, and it's now impossible to fly the hold using the LOC for the inbound course. Remembering the MSA is 5700 (or quickly glancing down at the chart, though, I can climb to 5700 and reassess my situation and consult with ATC from there.

 

It's one of those "good to know" things, but it's usually something I only pay attention to during the brief, remembering to reference it if anything happens to my primary sources of navigation.

Hey Vernon. I think you are going for the record on avsim for questions asked! Lol. But good for you. I will reference Canada for your MSA question.

 

Most of the time you are being vectored for the approach in Canada so the controller usually can get you low enough, even lower than the MSA, so you don't have to worry much about altitude. Some of our approaches start outside of the MSA so the MSA isn't even applicable to us. For example, an RNP Rwy 34 into Kelowna, BC. The first crossing waypoint is EPDOV at 11000A. I used to fly oil crews into remote, non radar coverage airports. That is when the MSA really became useful. The last words issued by ATC at these locations were usually "cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of XX airport. Minimum IFR altitude 25nm is XXXX. Our king airs/1900's didn't have a 25 nm circle ability but we could easily reference the fix that the 25 nm MSA was based on. In Canada the MSA is very rarely based on the airport. 99 times out of 100 it's based on the FAF or IAF. However, the 100 nm safe altitude is almost always based on the airport. So we would descend to the 25 nm altitude (in Canada it's not just an advisory altitude. In a non radar environment its a life saver!). From there we would transition into a full procedure or once in a while the straight in approach if it was possible.

 

Otherwise we rarely need to put a 25nm ring on the fix page in the NG. I would say 1/300 approaches we ever do it. More like 1/500 probably. But where you do most of your simming it may be a very useful step for your approach.

 

Jack Colwill

 

 

(in Canada it's not just an advisory altitude. In a non radar environment its a life saver!)

 

Yeah - didn't mean to downplay it too much. For us southern neighbors, there isn't much in terms of non-radar area here.

 

Also, to clarify my above point, I didn't really speak as precisely as I should've. As defined by the reg, it's more for emergency use. To me, that's still advisory (information to have on hand, just in case) up until the point of said potential emergency, but here's the official verbiage for clarity:

"MSA means minimum safe altitude, expressed in feet above mean sea level, depicted on an approach chart that provides at least 1,000 feet of obstacle clearance for emergency use within a certain distance from the specified navigation facility or fix."

FAR 97.3

 

In practice, since non-radar areas are so few and far between, our controllers usually establish you on the procedure while in some sort of coverage, and you can continue to fly the procedure via the established courses from there. As such, you really wouldn't need the MSA unless you needed to abruptly bail out of the approach (navaid failure, radio failure, and so on).

Yeah, that's why I had to emphasize that I am referencing Canada. We love non radar environment!

Go look at an IFR Enroute Chart. See the big brown numbers in each grid square that you never noticed? Pretty much the same concept: if you're not following the direction of some sort of navaid, you can use those numbers as minimum altitudes for that area.

 

Yeh very handy if needing to divert due to an emergency or some sort (GRID MORA)

 

Thanks for the informative info and help kyle, only time you would fly below MSA would be if you have visual contact or under radar control or on the glideslope and during RNAV procedures.

 

I think i'll only circle my ALT DEST just for awareness.

Hey Vernon. I think you are going for the record on avsim for questions asked! Lol. But good for you. I will reference Canada for your MSA question.

 

Haha! thanks for the reply.

, to clarify my above point, I didn't really speak as precisely as I should've. As defined by the reg, it's more for emergency use. To me, that's still advisory (information to have on hand, just in case) up until the point of said potential emergency, but here's the official verbiage for clarity:

"MSA means minimum safe altitude, expressed in feet above mean sea level, depicted on an approach chart that provides at least 1,000 feet of obstacle clearance for emergency use within a certain distance from the specified navigation facility or fix."

FAR 97.3

 

If you don't have a company or EOSID you could just climb straight ahead to the MSA that would be great use for the MSA!