hi all,i'm looking for an add-on plane that has the right equipment to do some IFR training on .. preferably a single engine piston with HSI, RMI (vor 1 on needle 1 and ADF 1 on needle 2) and a regular VOR 2 .. i want to do some VOR and ADF interceptions with it (QDM-QDM, QDM-QDR & QDR-QDR)thanx for any hints!Jan

Hi Jan.First, I assume you are pursuing a real world instrument rating? If that is not the case, then this reply may be meaninigless to this post.But if you are, here's some advice from a real world CFII...I am assuming that you wish to practice IFR procedures such as approaches, holds, ect, to aid in your training, since you can't actually count any training time using desktop flight simulators like MSFS.Of course you could use an FAA approved PCATD device as long as there is a CFII present to guide you. This is the only way that it will count towards the instrument rating.All that said, you can practice IFR procedures using MSFS or another program like "On Top 8" from ASA. I would recomend On Top if you want a simulator that is geared towards IFR proficency and training. With multiple monitors you can have the instructor station running on the second monitor. You can buy On Top 8 from ASA for around $150 without buying the flow blown PCATD from them wich would run you around $3,000. (Pretty pricy for most)But if you don't want to fork out the bucks for another desktop simulator, I would suggest using the default C172, 182, or mooney using the "Instrument panel" option. This will set up your screen similair to several other PCATD programs on the market.My suggestion would to upgrade your avionics by purchasing Reality XP's Garmin 530 package. This will allow you to simulate GPS approches using a real world GPS unit, which is more realistic than the default GPS which comes with MSFS.There are many great payware (and free-ware) add-on aircraft out there, but for practicing IFR procedures at home, I think the best aircraft use are the default ones that I mentioned. Pick one that is close to the type of aircraft that you are doing your real world instrument training in.By the way, do you own a flight yoke and rudder pedals? A joystick just won't be the same for practicing IFR techniques. I would also suggest a good throttle quadrant like the CH products one if you are using a multi-engine airplane. Good luck with your IFR training!Scott HeinzATP/CFII/DA20 Type Rated - Instructor Pilot - USAFA (KAFF), Colorado Springs, CO & at KCOSAOPA #00956593, since 1987Background in Corporate, Airline, and General AviationB.S. Degree in MISGamming System Specs: (Built this one myself)AMD Athlon-64 3000+ Gigabyte K8NS nForce3-250 Chipset 8x AGP Main Board 1GB DDR400 PC3200 Memory 160GB 7200 rpm Hard Drive 16x DVD-ROM Audigy 2ZS Gammer Sound Card5.1 Channel Surround Sound Speakers256MB GeForce-5700 8X AGP Video Cotytech Gaming CaseCH Products Yoke, Rudder Pedals, Throttle QuadrantSaitek Cyborg Gold Joystic for Helo's & Stick equipped aircrafteDimensional Force Feedback HeadsetsSaitek Eclipse KeyboardWindows XP Pro SP2Home Network for using the Instructor StationFS9 Sliders maxed with other settings (except weather, kills the FPS) at their best quality positions.

Hi Scott,thanx for the reply .. yes i'm doing real world IR training (i'm in a JAA-ATPL integrated program) .. we train on a Grob 115/C2 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/726475/L/) .. haven't seen one of those for flight sim yet ;-)i do have CH yoke and pedals, i'll have a look at On Top .. happy landings!!Jan

JanI would like to add a little to this discussion. When you are looking at IFR training where many FS aircraft let you down are in the flightdynamics and trimming.The secret of accurate instrument flight is always having the aircraft trimmed for every different configuration as that reduces the workload on the pilot freeing up his mind for other tasks like navigating radio calls etc.FS poorly simulates trim and many flight models are far to twitchy.Hence you really need aircraft which are well modelled as you really need to be handflying not on autopilot.You also need a panel which wont tax and confuse you with multiple windows popping up to obstruct your view and instrument scan.The Level D 767 although a big jet and hence overkill for basic handflown instrument traing has probably one of the most realistic feel and trim simulations.I sometimes use this aircraft loaded lightly with fuel and payload so that the VREF speeds are low and it can be handflown beautifully.Anyone recommend other aircraft which have suitable flightdynamics and trim for such training?Peter

Peter, Miss seeing your photos of the Seneca flights online.But, to the original poster. I am training for the CFI and CFII, and I have simmed for 14 years, flown for 5 years in RW. Despite many of the allegations, the following flight models and instrumentation is spot on . I fly Arrows, 182's, Cherokee Six, and have even flown my firm's King Air C90, and 15 hours in the Level D sims at Flight Safety Long Beach (MD-90, 88, 717, MD-11, 737-200)I am also a highly paid consultant aside from my main job, for an FAA simulator company that has been around for 30 years, and produces GA FTD's, A-ATD's, and PCATDS. Let me say this for all of you who are skeptical about FS9 as a training tool. I have seen the FAA certification process. I own a PCATD at home, and own Elite V8and X-plane (which is now FAA certified). The FAA is primarily concerned with instrument fluidity on the screen, and roughly correct flight dynamics. But, it is very clear, that the FAA has not kept current with the new technology. The flight models and instrument fluidity of many of the add-ons to FS9, blow away Elite or ASA. Plus, you get a VCockpit with FS9, which allows you the sensation of breaking out at mins over the runway and can give you a little bit of a sense of disorientation as you see the clouds rush by with low visibility. If you don't watch the instruments, you will sometimes chase lights you see, etc. Try it if you don't believe me. As for training, yes you can't log it, but it is the best recurrency you can get, and I always fly a RW approach on FS9 before I fly it. It has helped immensely with regard to what obstructions or mountains to expect, and the orientation of things. Elite and ASA's visuals are horrible, and try a demo. They flight models are way two twitchy with the rudder, have poor response to power up and power down, and have way too little pitch and roll stability. Which, despite the above CFI's assessment, the default flight models in FS9, are the worst ever. Not even remotely realistic in pitch, roll, bank, power, etc. You have to buy add-ons unfortunately. Bottom line, get an instrument rating. And, for GA practice that you don't need to log use these:Carenado 182RG - power settings right on, nice big instrument panel toggle option), great VC cockpit which enhances the need for scan and the sensation of being in the soup, fluid instrument motion)Flight 1 172R (great panel, great instruments, great flight model, fluid instrument motion)RealAir simulations FREE 172 (great flight dynamics)Flight 1 421 (great flight dynamics)FSD Navajo (great flight model, great instruments)Dreamfleet Piper Archer (great panel, great instruments, great flight model.Dreamfleet A36 Bonanza - Great flight model and panelAeroworx King Air (great panel, great flight model)Eaglesoft products (especially Citation II)FLight 1 Cessna 310 (great flight model excellent gauges)Just Flight Seneca II Turbo (great flight model for IFR practice, horrible single engine out trainer, average gauges, but cheap)Airline:Level D 767 (can we find anything wrong?)Lonny Payne's 767 panel and POSKY flight modelPMDG 737 _ right on the money, great gauges, especially in zoom mode)PMDG Beech 1900 (great flight model, and good VC gauges)And freeware ---SGA MD-90 with MD-90 panel from Tony?SGA 737-200 and 727-200 panel (if you can find it) that was produced by two airline pilots) it is right on the money!Happy Flying!CB

CBWow what a list and credentials to advise :-) Just through interest from your list what are your five greatest?Ie you have to scrap the rest and choose the five best :-)thanksPeter

Peter, Do you have more pics from the Citation for the real world forum?For GA and real world flying practice (i.e. what most GA pilots can or will do realistically)1. Real Air 172 (great flight model and #1 b/c free)2. Carenado 182RgII (great VC, great gauges, great flight model, panel pops up for total IFR training, and down for approach view, fluid gauges)3. Dreamfleet A36 Bonanza (great VC, great gauges, great flight model)4. Dreamfleet Piper Archer (matches 50% of the U.S. training fleet Warriors)then on the slightly fantasy side of aircraft:5. Aeroworx King Air (although the patch is going to be a big help for refresh rates in panel)6. Eaglesoft Citation II (spot on based on one Part 91 ride in CE500 in right seat, expandable gauges for IFR, great VC, good sounds. )PURE FANTASY- PMDG 737, LevelD 767, ES Citation X

Btw, Peter is a high time pilot and he worked with Real Air Simulations, I would listen to his recommendations! BTW, if you want to become a really good IFR pilot, don't rely so much on the GPS. True, if you have a 530 in your plane in real life it is a great tool. But, most rental aircraft don't have them, and watching the VOR's, RMIs, ADF, etc. is key! Plus, focus on the six pack of instruments. The most prevelant observation I have made, is that poor scan of the primary instruments is the biggest problem of IFR pilots. CB

And, I would have the Real Air Marchetti, but I have not bought it yet. It is supposed to be fantastic, but it is unlikely that I will fly it in real life, so I have not bought it yet. See a theme here? :))CB

>Do you have more pics from the Citation for the real world forum?http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/121235.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/121237.jpg

>hi all,>>i'm looking for an add-on plane that has the right equipment>to do some IFR training on .. >>preferably a single engine piston with HSI, RMI (vor 1 on>needle 1 and ADF 1 on needle 2) and a regular VOR 2 .. >>i want to do some VOR and ADF interceptions with it (QDM-QDM,>QDM-QDR & QDR-QDR)>>thanx for any hints!>>>JanThe Dreemfleet Archer is very good for it. Othewise if you have two computers... you could get the Project Majenta's IFR Panel and run it. Which is what I do flying MSFsim. Or you could go the ASA's ON Top 8.0 route.. But if you are flying a cessna for your IFR... then I would not recommend ON Top. rather.. get the ASA's IP Trainer (this is different from ON Top). I simply love it.

As a CFII with actual experience both as a single pilot and with students who own their own airplanes, I can honestly tell you that FS 2004 is an outstanding program for IFR training and currency. Not only will you speed things up, but you will keep things fresh. NO YOU CAN'T LOG IT. BUT, you will develop your confidence and certainly be well prepared with proper procedures.There's only one problem, it's going to cost you a significant amount of money in order to truly get the full benefit of fs 2004, but you can save money on your initial ticket because you might be able to get it in less hours.Here's what I have:GoFlight RadiosGoFlight ThrottleAETI YokeCirrus Pedalsand an up to date computer properly configured....After you get your Instrument Rating you will really enjoy flying the SF 260 or other payware airplane with Active Sky V and Flight Environment to your favorite destinations. You will experience getting in and out of clouds, bumps, and an ILS approach to minimums.A quick example: For the past few days it has been raining in Florida. I decided to use Active Sky and plan a flight with real weather from my home airport KBKV (Brooksville)to KORD the home of Disney. The weather changed several times while enroute. I have done this flight in real life and the only thing that was missing was the heat from the sun, but I was still sweating in front of my monitor. Many people who do not fly in actual weather don't really know that FS 2004 and all the great add ons do make this program as real as it gets. Some may state that trimming is important (and it is) that the ATC has to be improved (and it could be) but these are not really as important as fighting to maintain heading and altitude while following ATC commands. VERY, VERY REAL! You will develop your instrument scan, interpretation, control, approach procedures, and you learn how to follow ATC commands. As for DPs and STARS, some pilots choose to request no DPs & STARS when the file their Flight Plans. So I can tell you that they are not as important to the Private Pilot as they are to the Airline Pilot.If anyone is considering an IFR ticket, FS 2004 and all its add-ons, are a wise investment. I can honestly say that it's the best investment you will make, especially if you have your own airplane. The other softwares don't even come close. FS 2004 is adictive.Here are a few tips:Start with Flight1 Cessnas 172RThen Move on to Carenado's 182RGthen, SF 260, Flight 1 Piper Meridian,CRJ, PMG 737, 767, RPB 747, ConcordeWOW. You'll be busy for the next 20 years. Enjoy!Jose OteroCFI, CFII

One of the best things about the Archer is that you can click on an instrument to instantly "cover" it for practicing partial panel.-Jim

>6. Eaglesoft Citation II (spot on based on one Part 91 ride in>CE500 in right seat, expandable gauges for IFR, great VC, good>sounds. )As the modeler and gauge programmer for the Citation II, you've just put a bit smile on my face! Thanks! What a perfect message to end my long day... ;)

All those add-ons are nice and I'm sure they help, but IMHO they aren't all that necessary. Using the default 172 IFR panel, a halfway decent joystick, and cranking the turbulence up a bit will do a lot for improving your scan, which is a very crucial key to becoming an instrument pilot. As far as approach procedures and stuff like that, you can use any IFR aircraft in FS for that, just so long as you can stay ahead of the airplane.