Weather radar test (stupid question)

[codechris 9]

There isn't a specific checklist item that tells us to actually start the engines, but yet somehow we manage to remember to do so.

 

Use common sense.  Professionals know how to do their job, they don't need to be micro-managed down to the line item.

 

No, there are flows for that. Which include, among others, turning off the packs, turning on the anti-collision light, full pumps on, a call on start sequence of engines.

 

Evidence also suggest regarding "don' need to be micro-managed down the line item" is not correct in this case. Part of a Push/Start checklist includes checking the doors and windows are locked (yeah, windows on a plane need to be shut, who knew). Let's forget professionalism here for a second, I lock my door when leaving the house. Do people forget? Yes they do. "Landing Checklist....Landing gear, down 3 green lights" hmm landing, sounds common sense we need all landing gear down, is there a check list item for this? Yes.

 

Let's look at it another way; I work in IT, and when dealing with changes within systems and network we have a system called change management. This varies between companies, some are full of red tape, some are more of a check box exercise. I've seen both ends of the spectrum. But one thing I tell all juniors, or any staff for that matter, is that in the change document, when it comes to the change and roll-back,  list exactly what you are doing, especially in the roll-back section.

 

You write the change, 5 days later you go to implement. Change goes wrong, it's 11pm at night, you're doing it at home before going to bed, and suddenly you need to remember very quickly how to roll back. To make sure you've not forgotten, or do things out of sequence, there you have it, in the document you wrote, exactly what to do. I specialise in networks, a lot of the changes I've implemented over the years can take whole offices, even whole countries for my company, off-line, if the change goes wrong. I do them when nobody is in the office, at home, very late at night. It's late, I'm tired, my brains not working so well. I've got a list of step by step what I have to do. I've been doing this for years and I know networks, especially the one's I've built, administer and baby every day, but doesn't matter. I've got my list, my brain could be half way to dream town and I can still do it. We are all human

[JoeDiamond 67]

OK, so you add your line item to the before takeoff checklist to turn the radar on.  How about another checklist item to set the range and tilt to given values?  After all I can have the radar turned on but it's not going to do me any good if I have the antenna tilted full down.  How about the mode, do I want WX or WX+T, lets add another item for that.  Perhaps I am departing into an area with high terrain and I would rather have the terrain display selected?  See where I am going with this?  There is no one size fits all procedure that works.  Once an item is written into procedure I'm bound to do it that way and only that way.  This is an example of something that is best left up to the discretion of the pilots.

 

This isn't the same as "Landing gear - down".  That is a procedural item that is accomplished the same way every flight by every pilot.

[codechris 9]

This isn't the same as "Landing gear - down".  That is a procedural item that is accomplished the same way every flight by every pilot.

 

Yet it's in a checklist, as obvious as it is to have the landing gear down. Do we have green lights? Yes, great. WXR on; seams pretty obvious to me why it's in the checklist.

 

Also, I really have to highlight the fact that it's not me that put it in a checklist, it's based upon the two airlines checklist's and flows I have. So a group of people obviously thought it was a good idea to include that. I am simply stating that yes, WXR is one some checklists I have, and it's somewhere between taxi and takeoff. I am only highlighting that it is on a checklist, and I can see why

[kevinh 409]

Here's what Boeing's checklist philosophy was for the 757:
 

Normal checklists are used to verify that certain critical procedural steps have been accomplished. Only procedural steps which, if omitted, would have a direct and adverse impact on normal operation are included. Items annunciated by the Crew Alerting System (EICAS) are not included. (Boeing B-757 flight manual, 1985)

http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegani/Cockpit%20Checklists.pdf

 

Leaving the weather radar off will not have a direct and adverse impact on normal operation. As Joe said, using it is common sense if conditions warrant it. Like switching on the wipers in heavy rain. Let's face it, if Boeing don't consider it critical enough to include in their Normal Checklist then it's quite likely it isn't important enough.

 

If you include every possible switch selection in every segment the checklist would take a long time to run. Critical items could easily get missed if attention wandered. A checklist actively checks critical items you set during flows. A lot of other things are included in flows that aren't in the checklist.

 

 

Yet it's in a checklist, as obvious as it is to have the landing gear down.

In the Landing Checklist yes, but not in the Takeoff Checklist.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

This is an interesting discussion, to be sure, and one that I've thought often about.

 

I think one thing just about any pilot needs to know (particularly the GA guys with less experience) is that checklists come in all shapes and sizes, and none are perfect. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten into a different example of the exact same type of aircraft and found the checklists to be different. Why? Different managerial thoughts on how a plane should be run. I've seen some checklists that go into the details of what needs to be done, and how; and I've seen others that simply say "do it."

 

Checklists should be employed as a tool to ensure safe operation of an aircraft. If you notice something that you're forgetting, add it to your checklist. Flying with the group I fly with, it's interesting to see how much thought, feedback, and improvement goes into the checklist alone. Sometimes, simply moving an item into a more logical spot saves one the embarrassment of hearing the crew chief yelling "BOOOOOOST PUMP" from the back of the plane.

 

If you think it deserves to be added, the super awesome thing about the sim is that you can say "you know what, this checklist is stupid because it doesn't have [x]." *scribble scribble* "Better."

 

Of the planes I fly most often - at the moment - they're operated pretty uniquely when compared to one another:

• One requires flaps on takeoff, while the other doesn't.
• One requires a bunch of fuel pump work, while the other simply uses it to get primed (in normal ops).
• One requires effort to ensure you're on top of fuel management, while the other doesn't.
• One requires more finesse in the engine management, while the other couldn't honestly care less as long as it isn't oversped.
• One is fast, while the other is simply utilitarian (to a degree).

...but after landing my checklist is the same:

• Flaps up,
• Contextual lights off, taxi light on,
• Transponder verified.

Note the "contextual" part. One plane doesn't have a beacon, so I'll leave the strobes on the day time, else it's landing light off, strobes off, and taxi light on. For the transponder, the G1000s in the fleet automatically select GND when on the ground and below a threshold speed, so I just verify. Otherwise, I remain on Mode-C until the spot (new FAA procedure from the past few years). Adding another item to that mental checklist is as simple as reminding myself that it needs to be done as part of that list. If I consistently forget it (like on the flights that I bring my mountable cameras), I make sure to bring my modified checklist.

[codechris 9]

Leaving the weather radar off will not have a direct and adverse impact on normal operation. As Joe said, using it is common sense if conditions warrant it. Like switching on the wipers in heavy rain. Let's face it, if Boeing don't consider it critical enough to include in their Normal Checklist then it's quite likely it isn't important enough.

 

 

There is truth in that, and one I thought of recently was in high altitude areas, such as climbing out of northern Italian airports going north, where you often have to circle around to gain high before going up towards France. If the weather is good, or even if not, it's probably not you're biggest concern; it's terrain. So as a PF, especially in the dark, you probably want terrain, rather then weather, highlighted on your display

[kevinh 409]

The weather radar should still be on of course and the PNF will probably have it displayed if the PF has terrain selected. The key point is you aren't risking a direct and adverse issue if the radar is left off. No EFIS mode selections are included, they are left to operator SOPs, airmanship and personal preference.

 

TCAS is far more important operationally yet is not included in the Boeing 737 QRH for takeoff.

[JoeDiamond 67]

 

 

TCAS is far more important operationally yet is not included in the Boeing 737 QRH for takeoff.

 

Boeing's main concern is flying the aircraft.  This would be more of an operator specific item.  "Transponder - TA/RA" is an item in our before start checklist.

 

My company's policy is to have the terrain display selected for takeoff unless the radar is necessary for departure in which case one pilot will keep the terrain display selected.  "Terrain display - selected" is an item in our before start checklist as it is required for all departures.  Radar use is discretionary so it's not a checklist item.

[kevinh 409]

 

 

Boeing's main concern is flying the aircraft. This would be more of an operator specific item. "Transponder - TA/RA" is an item in our before start checklist.

Exactly, just as some operators apparently include weather radar in theirs.

[victorlima01 4]

Glad to see my questions brought up such an interesting discussion. The reason why I brought it up is that here in Brazil I know of at least two or three scary stories directly related to the Wx radar. And it's not like we have the worst weather in the world down here, mind you. So in my opinion a Wx radar-related item in the before-takeoff checklist seems like a good idea and I don't think that is micro-managing the crew at all. Having a Wx-radar......off item in the taxi-in checks seems just as important to protect the ground crew from harmful radiation.

 

That being said, having a functional Wx radar on our PMDG planes is a novelty to us, which means we're more prone to forgetting about it altogether than your average RW driver. 

[skelsey 765]

As mentioned above, checklists are designed to deal with critical items.

 

I am aware that BA recently has had a "Back to Boeing" push -- they have been working on realigning their procedures and checklists, as much as possible, with the original documentation published by Boeing. As a result, many of the checklists have had a lot stripped out: for instance, there's no longer a separate push & start checklist on the B747 and the Preflight/Before Start checklists have been cut in half. There is, as Chris says, no item regarding turning the weather radar on (I suspect it would read AS REQUIRED in any case) but there is a WEATHER RADAR.....OFF line in the after landing checklist.

 

One of the problems with long checklists is that if you're making pilots read pages and pages of checklists at busy stages (preflight) or critical stages of flight (before takeoff, on final etc) you risk either never getting to the end (if you get interrupted you generally have to start again at the top) or you're diverting the pilots' attention away from flying/taxiing the aircraft at these critical junctures.

 

As mentioned above, weather radar is going to depend on the situation at any given moment and so it would be difficult, if not impossible to write a checklist item that was flexible enough to cover all eventualities without it becoming meaningless (i.e. AS REQUIRED -- well, you'd presumably be selecting it as required in any case).

[Driver170 42]

One of the problems with long checklists is that if you're making pilots read pages and pages of checklists at busy stages (preflight) or critical stages of flight (before takeoff, on final etc) you risk either never getting to the end (if you get interrupted you generally have to start again at the top) or you're diverting the pilots' attention away from flying/taxiing the aircraft at these critical junctures.

 

From the FCTM

 

The key to early recognition of pilot incapacitation is the regular use of crew resource management concepts during flight deck operation. Proper crew coordination involves checks and crosschecks using verbal communications. Routine adherence to standard operating procedures and standard profiles can aid in detecting a problem. Suspicion of some degree of gross or subtle incapacitation should also be considered when a crewmember does not respond to any verbal communication associated with a significant deviation from a standard procedure or standard flight profile. Failure of any crewmember to respond to a second request or a checklist response is cause for investigation.

If you do not feel well, let the other pilot know and let that pilot fly the airplane. During flight, crewmembers should also be alert for incapacitation of the other crewmember.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

The key to early recognition of pilot incapacitation is the regular use of crew resource management concepts during flight deck operation. Proper crew coordination involves checks and crosschecks using verbal communications. Routine adherence to standard operating procedures and standard profiles can aid in detecting a problem. Suspicion of some degree of gross or subtle incapacitation should also be considered when a crewmember does not respond to any verbal communication associated with a significant deviation from a standard procedure or standard flight profile. Failure of any crewmember to respond to a second request or a checklist response is cause for investigation.
If you do not feel well, let the other pilot know and let that pilot fly the airplane. During flight, crewmembers should also be alert for incapacitation of the other crewmember.

 

Not sure the context in which you're attempting to use this, but I'll attempt to address a couple of the possibilities:

 

If the attempt is to somewhat refute Simon's post with the idea that adherence to (more) checklists helps to realize possible crew issues, then I guess I could see it to a certain degree. More checklists means more crew interaction to potentially catch an issue. There's some merit to that.

 

At the same time, while the FCTM specifically mentions checklists, there are many other signs. Even without checklists, I can tell the guy or gal sitting next to me is potentially sick - or, given the season, suffering from allergies - by the sound of their voice, and frequent yawning in an attempt to unblock their ears. If it's a crewmember you fly frequently with, one can pick up on subtle mood changes and other indicators. Crew coordination could simply be a matter of SOP, and not necessarily items on a checklist.

[Driver170 42]

I wasn't trying to refute simon, but trying to expand maybe why they have long checklists?

[kevinh 409]

I wasn't trying to refute simon, but trying to expand maybe why they have long checklists?

But that FCTM quote says nothing at all about long checklists, which are not a good thing for the reasons Simon and I have mentioned. If the crew member doesn't respond as normal that will be apparent regardless of the length of checklist and it would be nonsense to have an especially long checklist designed to make incapacitation more obvious, should it be present.