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Flying Penguin

Before Landing Checklist - Flaps

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Hi,

 

This might be more of a question of flow than a product issue, but if I'm doing a flaps 35 landing, the flaps sequencing has me a bit confused.

 

As per the manual, I initiate the before landing checklist using the phrase "Flaps 15, Before Landing Checklist Please", flaps come down to (surprise surprise) 15 degrees, but then the checklist rattles through to "Flaps" and the response "Indicating XX, Planned XX".  

 

At this point I would expect to be confirming 35 degree flaps, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere in this flow for me to request flaps 35, other than doing it myself.  So my question is simply where am I supposed to do it?  Do I ask for flaps 35 at the point the PM asks me to confirm flaps, before responding to his question?  Do I do it myself?  Is the ability to say "Flaps 35, Before Landing Checklist Please" needed?  I'm unsure which is the most realistic way to do it and would appreciate any guidance.

 

Cheers,

 

Jamie

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I'm not an expert on the Dash 8, and individual airlines will do this in different ways, but the theory is that this method enables you to get the landing checklist completed earlier and in less of a rush than would be necessary if you delayed until landing flap selection.

 

In order to meet stable approach criteria, most airlines will require you to be:

 

- On the glidepath

- On the centreline

- Engines spooled

- At final approach speed (i.e. Vref + 5 or very close to it)

- Landing configuration (gear down, landing flap)

Landing checklist completed

 

All by 1000ft above aerodrome level (sometimes 500ft aal in VMC, but in my experience most airlines seem to be moving towards a blanket 1000ft aal stabilisation height), otherwise a go-around is mandatory.

 

This can be a bit challenging if, for instance, ATC require you to maintain a higher than ideal speed (160kts to 4DME -- ~1200ft aal -- is fairly common in Europe). In this instance, you would probably be flying down the approach at 160kts with an intermediate flap setting, and then in order to meet the stable approach criteria you would have to select Ref + 5 (or whatever), landing flap and then run the Landing Checklist -- all in about twenty seconds before you reach 1000R (add in a bit of a tailwind to make things even more exciting!).

 

So in order to make it slightly easier to meet SAC, some airlines permit for the landing checklist to be started before final landing flap is selected. So in this case, you're tootling down the glideslope, you've armed the speedbrakes, dropped the gear and selected Flap 15. You can now run the landing checklist -- speedbrake armed, landing gear down, cabin report received etc. -- and when you get to flaps, you call "Indicating 15 (or whatever you have selected), planned 35 (or whatever the planned landing flap is)". Crucially, PM should not call "Landing checklist complete" -- because it's not until landing flap has been selected.

 

Having run the 'rest' of the checklist, you can now continue down the approach. When you reduce your speed to Ref + 5, you can then call for landing flap -- at which point PM will select the appropriate setting, confirm it is set and call "landing checklist complete" -- thus significantly reducing cockpit workload in that 20 seconds between reducing back to final approach speed and the 1000R stabilisation point.

 

However, as I say, it is something which varies between airlines.

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Hi,

 

This might be more of a question of flow than a product issue, but if I'm doing a flaps 35 landing, the flaps sequencing has me a bit confused.

 

As per the manual, I initiate the before landing checklist using the phrase "Flaps 15, Before Landing Checklist Please", flaps come down to (surprise surprise) 15 degrees, but then the checklist rattles through to "Flaps" and the response "Indicating XX, Planned XX".  

 

At this point I would expect to be confirming 35 degree flaps, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere in this flow for me to request flaps 35, other than doing it myself.  So my question is simply where am I supposed to do it?  Do I ask for flaps 35 at the point the PM asks me to confirm flaps, before responding to his question?  Do I do it myself?  Is the ability to say "Flaps 35, Before Landing Checklist Please" needed?  I'm unsure which is the most realistic way to do it and would appreciate any guidance.

 

Cheers,

 

Jamie

 

After flaps 5 , and you slow and keep 180 knots, the next thing you need to do is order "gear down". That is what triggers the " before landing flow" by the FO,  Then call flaps 35 (  if needed).  I never use flaps 35 unless it is a really short field. 

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Just off topic,adn not wishing to hijack this, having just acquired the Voice Edition,----all previous FS2Crew aircraft versions having been Button Version---- is there a commands from PF to PNF flowlist to follow using voice commands?

 

Thanks.

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You open the FS2Crew configuration manager and select Voice edition instead of button

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Thanks all  B)

 

 

I'm not an expert on the Dash 8, and individual airlines will do this in different ways, but the theory is that this method enables you to get the landing checklist completed earlier and in less of a rush than would be necessary if you delayed until landing flap selection.

 

In order to meet stable approach criteria, most airlines will require you to be:

 

- On the glidepath

- On the centreline

- Engines spooled

- At final approach speed (i.e. Vref + 5 or very close to it)

- Landing configuration (gear down, landing flap)

Landing checklist completed

 

All by 1000ft above aerodrome level (sometimes 500ft aal in VMC, but in my experience most airlines seem to be moving towards a blanket 1000ft aal stabilisation height), otherwise a go-around is mandatory.

 

This can be a bit challenging if, for instance, ATC require you to maintain a higher than ideal speed (160kts to 4DME -- ~1200ft aal -- is fairly common in Europe). In this instance, you would probably be flying down the approach at 160kts with an intermediate flap setting, and then in order to meet the stable approach criteria you would have to select Ref + 5 (or whatever), landing flap and then run the Landing Checklist -- all in about twenty seconds before you reach 1000R (add in a bit of a tailwind to make things even more exciting!).

 

So in order to make it slightly easier to meet SAC, some airlines permit for the landing checklist to be started before final landing flap is selected. So in this case, you're tootling down the glideslope, you've armed the speedbrakes, dropped the gear and selected Flap 15. You can now run the landing checklist -- speedbrake armed, landing gear down, cabin report received etc. -- and when you get to flaps, you call "Indicating 15 (or whatever you have selected), planned 35 (or whatever the planned landing flap is)". Crucially, PM should not call "Landing checklist complete" -- because it's not until landing flap has been selected.

 

Having run the 'rest' of the checklist, you can now continue down the approach. When you reduce your speed to Ref + 5, you can then call for landing flap -- at which point PM will select the appropriate setting, confirm it is set and call "landing checklist complete" -- thus significantly reducing cockpit workload in that 20 seconds between reducing back to final approach speed and the 1000R stabilisation point.

 

However, as I say, it is something which varies between airlines.

 

(my emphasis)

 

This is the bit that confuses me, according to the manual, the valid options are only in matching pairs, i.e. "Indicating 15, Planned 15" or similar, which would preclude your method of doing it (which would make perfect real-world sense).  

 

I guess the answer is to not respond to the Flaps part of the checklist until in full landing flaps just before landing.  I'll give it a go tonight and see if that works acceptably and doesn't cause any unforeseen consequences.


Just off topic,adn not wishing to hijack this, having just acquired the Voice Edition,----all previous FS2Crew aircraft versions having been Button Version---- is there a commands from PF to PNF flowlist to follow using voice commands?

 

Thanks.

 

That's specified in some detail in the manual (accessible through the config).

 

A condensed version is available here: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/438074-condensed-flows-and-checks/.

 

EDIT: Direct link to file is here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20624964/q400flows.xlsx

 

I have it printed on spiral bound cards to use in flight.

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The way FS2 Crew works with the MJQ 400, you have to follow the specific script and you can't ad lib it, or it will stop responding. One of my Virtual Airlines . Intercity VA http://www.viaintercity.com/index.php  has a 4 page sheet posted in the forum that one can print out with all the necessary commands and the order that they have to be in. If you join the VA, you can download it on the Forum under the Q400 topics. 

 

The link fo another cheat sheet in the above post does not work. 

 

Here is the flow you need to use with the Q400

 

 

Initial approach 

 

 Flaps 5     ( maintain 180 knots)

Gear Down

( 1st Officer starts before landing flow only after you say gear down)

Flaps 15/  " Before landing checklist"  

Set Missed approach Altitude _    feet ( I always skip this) 

1000 ft ( if required )  PF says "  Flaps 35" 

The Co pilot will then say landing gear " Down," three green " from PF

He will say Condition levers  " Max"

Aux/stny/ptu bumps   He says "on"

Bleeds  on, min, pr of min

 

Flaps    Indicating 15/35

Planned  15/35

 

 

All valid Pilot flying responses that will be accepted by the PM are in red. 

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Flaps    Indicating 15/35

Planned  15/35

 

Ok, on reading that I just checked the manual and realised that I completely missed the INDICATING 15 PLANNED 35 option.  I.  Am.  An.  Idiot....  :lol:

 

I will go get some glasses and lay off the moon juice....

 

 

 

And I updated the link to the flow in my earlier post so that should work now.

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Ok, on reading that I just checked the manual and realised that I completely missed the INDICATING 15 PLANNED 35 option.  I.  Am.  An.  Idiot....  :lol:

 

I will go get some glasses and lay off the moon juice....

 

 

 

And I updated the link to the flow in my earlier post so that should work now.

 

Yes that is the checklist I have. I see one error, the Taxi Flow first command by PF  "Set taxi Light On" should be in red. 

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