After fiddeling for hours to get Squawkbox, IVAO and other programs to work, I feel a little bit disappointed. Many people praise those programs for their added realism, but in return I found that I got a lot less less.- Where is the traffic? It seems that during an online session I hardly find any traffic at the airports and even taxied all by myself around at KJFK during rush hour, eventually followed by another fellow pilot. All airports that I have been to were all deserted, with at best one or two fellow pilot and no AI traffic from my Ultimate Traffic at all.- Where is the ATC? I know that it is impossible to staff all ATC operations, but I have found at best one or two controllers in my area. What about the rest of my ATC? Do I have to fly all alone just for the excitement of *maybe* talking to a controller at my arrival airport?I know, I might have expected too much, but without the 'online realism features', I have almost accurate traffic scheduled and buzzing airports and gates with Ultimate Traffic, ATC from gate to gate (although not human) and find traffic in the air and everywhere.Am I missing something???

Uh the reason no offense is IVAO, it is a much smaller organization that Vatsim. Most of their traffic is in Europe and less in the US. I would suggest trying Vatsim, especially at 8PM local time, you can get 30 planes on the ground. But even on Vatsim you will have less traffic, and less ATC, but it is real people, and you can get events, some events are so packed that it sounds exactly like the real world.

So, I am totally dependent on the presence of other pilots and ATC to make my flight more realistic and in the wost case I'll fly all alone, even without the standard FS ATC and traffic? Humm...

Get this program, and before you go flying , see where it is busy as far as controllers. That is generally where you will find the most traffic. Places like Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, New York.... It is really nice when you hear ground control or the tower giving you taxi instructions and telling you to watch for another plane on the ramp, and you hear the other pilot state that he sees you.......... You won't get that in FS ATChttp://www.avsim.com/hangar/utils/servinfo/Bob

Not to hijack this thread, Bob, but I'd be interested in your impressions of the Beech 200. Very tempted by it. This is relevant to his discussion because I fly the F1 172, the FSD Commander, or the Dreamfleet A36. All are single engine GA and I was under the impression that VATSIM caters to "heavies" and not us low and slow folks. I thought the B200 might be a compromise. I like the smaller AC because I plan RW training soon and want as much experience as possible with craft in a class I might fly in real life in the not-too-distant future. Still, the B200 beckons, especially after reading the manual...

Right there is part of my beef with online flying. The whole idea of a simulator is to let you do what YOU want to do, or am I wrong? If I want to practice instrument approaches at my local airport or go from NY to Las Vegas I can do it with the default ATC. With the game ATC I can crank up as much or as little traffic as I want and see the planes on the ground and in the air. The default ATC will tell you to watch for the Mooney, Cessna, Boeing, on the taxiway. To each their own I suppose. Online flying is not the be all and end all like its proponents claim. Unfortunatly you have the "faithful" who will jump to to the defense of online flying no matter what! I am not talking about you guys, but wow, suggest that Vatsim, or others are not the absolute last word in ATC and you get flamed badly in other forums. Oh and I do have a pretty good idea what real ATC sounds like and what it is like to work the system in real weather in a real plane.

i just finished a nice flight from toronto to logain on vatsim. Very busy i must admit and lots of speaking controllers. SAdly i have to use text, anyone have suggestions for a nice mic?

I use to feel the same way as some of you. I tried Vatsim once 6 months or so ago and did not like the lack of traffic and it was too hard to understand. But I will tell you what, now I will not fly any other way. Of course with the FS ATC you can beef up the traffic and see planes taxing around and hear the same instructions and same routes repeated over and over again etc... However, with online flying their is an actual challenge presented of dealing with real people. I have flown for real a lot in my life and will continue onto a career, however, my understanding of navigation was lacking to say the least. With my time online I was forced to understand SIDS, STARS and everything in between just to take off and land. I am still learning and have a long way go but the information in which Vatsim has given me is great. Also, I do not like to fly without ATC on Vatsim. The suggestion for Servinfo is perfect and also at Vatsim's home page it shows who is online so you'll know where to fly. In fact, since I have really begun flying online about two months ago (I try to complete at least one flight a day, time permitting) I have never been out of ATC contact or not seen another plane or not had to avoid another plane. I had a simultaneous approach into L.A. that was unbelievable. Flying into Phoenix the another day I and four other planes were perfectly separated so we landed about 4 min after one another. The way to make sure you always have ATC is to check before you fly to see who is online. Of course your favorite airport may not have tower control or even center control which forces one to look elsewhere. I have found myself flying all over the U.S., learning different departures and arrivals and ARTCC. Looking at Vatsim right now (11:20 P.M. mountain time; 23:20 MST) Houston Center is staffed, Albuquerque Center is Staffed, L.A. center is staffed with towers also staffed at many locations along the way. 120 pilots are online, mostly in the U.S. The point being, at most times of the day and night, one can fly with ATC and other pilots. If Center is staffed they can also act and do act as Ground, Tower, Departure and Approach!! They can take you the whole way. It gets crazy sometimes for them which in turn wants me to be a better pilot and follow procedures to a T (hence the challenge!). Also as mentioned there are events on Vastim. Just three days ago was CrissCross the Rockies where planes flew from Denver to Salt Lake City. Both airports were packed with planes (which also made it hard to stay connected sometimes but possible and well worth it) and each ATC position was also staffed (Ground, tower, departure, approach, several centers along the way). Vatsim also has a good forum for support of all facets of the online experience.

Radar Contac: http://www.jdtllc.com/See here for a avsim review: http://www.avsim.com/pages/0103/radar_control_3/rc3.htmlI'm using it for years now. Version 4 is upcoming and integrating AI aircraft into procedures. It blows default ATC away..Rob "Holland&Holland" de Vries http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Flying.gif"To go up, pull the stick back. To go down, pull the stick back harder"

Yes, quite often large areas of the globe are not staffed on vatsim.However, bear in mind timezones and scheduled events. With a bit of judicious selection of route, you can have a truly amazing experience.I've yet to hear FS ATC tell you 'Passing 2000 ft cancel the SID fly direct Castlepoint. Contact Information on 129.4' yet on Vatsim this is bread and butter stuff. Like previous posters have said, its real people with real foibles and real intelligence. Another reason to fly online is that the more people are flying, the more people will be tempted to become controllers and the better it gets.I fly offline as well - especially when getting used to a new aircraft, but the online experience can be very, very rewarding.CheersLungs

I'll jump in and say the Aeroworx B200 is an excellent compromise for VATSIM. It's capable of getting in and out of small fields, yet can run around up at the flight levels with the big dogs, and has the range and speed to do some nice IFR flights between cities. Or you can burn a little more fuel and drop down a bit and stay VFR. Oh yeah, it's also gorgeous, ultra-realistic, and flies like a dream. Can you tell I like it? :)As for flying on VATSIM, you can typically find 300-500 folks online during peak American times, and weekends (all day) consistently break 600. Yes, there are times where you can fly from Miami to LA and never talk to a single person, sadly, but then again, if you time it right, you can also fly into an airport during a staged event, and find close to real-world rush-hour levels of traffic, and find all levels of ATC staffed from Clearance, Ground, Tower, multiple Approach/Departure, and multiple Center. Use Servinfo (or the IVAO equivalent), it really helps to show where the traffic is.I tried Radar Contact when I first got into FS2004; personally, I prefer VATSIM, but RC is light-years ahead of built-in FS ATC and might be a good choice. RC4 should be a great product when it comes out.Lewis "Moose" GregoryRichmond, Virginia

A couple of threads which I think are related to thisVFR Flying using VATSIM - this forum http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...67426&mode=fullFlying online - Roaring Thirties forumhttp://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...id=52&mode=fullIn particular check the postings from AIRAC who is a member of staff/controller from IVAO. For me that shows both how friendly and accomodating the staff at IVAO really are and perhaps says something about ATC coverage which could explain something.Andrew BrownROARING THIRTIEShttp://www.gordiusfs.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

>Right there is part of my beef with online flying. The whole>idea of a simulator is to let you do what YOU want to do, or>am I wrong? If I want to practice instrument approaches at my>local airport or go from NY to Las Vegas I can do it with the>default ATC. With the game ATC I can crank up as much or as>little traffic as I want and see the planes on the ground and>in the air. The default ATC will tell you to watch for the>Mooney, Cessna, Boeing, on the taxiway. >>To each their own I suppose. Online flying is not the be all>and end all like its proponents claim. Unfortunatly you have>the "faithful" who will jump to to the defense of online>flying no matter what! I am not talking about you guys, but>wow, suggest that Vatsim, or others are not the absolute last>word in ATC and you get flamed badly in other forums. >>Oh and I do have a pretty good idea what real ATC sounds like>and what it is like to work the system in real weather in a>real plane.>>About you comment "The whole idea of a SIMULATOR is to let you do what YOU want to do". Yes you are wrong. A simulator is to SIMULATE the real thing. In real life you don't necessarily do what you want. You are controlled by ATC. If you do want to do what you want, fly in class G airspace and have at er even when on vatsim. Compared to that CRAP atc FS supplies you with online ATC IS the be all end all of realism. If you want to ask which one is better for a real simulation ask all the RW pilots.

Obviously there will always be different prefences with regard to how FS9 can be best used etc. I think the important thing here is to respect those with varying opinions irrespective of whether you think their view is right or wrong. I can see reasons for flying on and offline and also that there is no right or wrong opinion but only different simmers with different ways of enjoying FS9. I do have an opinion which I will keep to myself this time, it would be a shame to see a thread like this become a bun fight.Not having a go at anyone here just giving an opinion :-):-beerchug Andrew BrownROARING THIRTIEShttp://www.gordiusfs.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Unfortunately, there IS no holy ATC grail for MSFS. All have LARGE gaps that leave a lot to be desired so it all boils down to what you are willing to sacrifice.- Default FS ATC, global coverage, intigrated AI interaction, clean and easy interface, provides a marginally realistic ATC experience from pushback to parking at the gate, approach vectors are not great, no SID / STAR interaction, flexibility to fly anywhere at any time.-VATSIM/IVAO - HUGE gaps in coverage many times requiring you to contact center to get IFR and taxi clearance, no AI traffic frequently causes empty airports and empty expanses of skies. Flying is dictated by time where ATC is online and in areas where ATC is online. Flying in fully staffed areas with lots of traffic is hyper realistic, requires a good understanding of ATC procedures, is as close to real ATC as you can get when staying in limited ATC staffed areas. No truly GLOBAL coverage.-Radar Contact 3.x - Realistic ATC commands, SID/STAR capabilities, no AI interaction, most airports NOT pronounced by name, eg, Kilo India Alpha Delta Airport..., still has canned chatter which you know has no bearing on current AI traffic. ATC speaks to you only therefore doesn't develop listnening skills since ATC voice for you is different than chatter. Global coverage, required good knowledge of ATC procedures, complex ATC instructions to you, slap on bottom when you screw up.So, pick your poison. For me, I've tried em all, and I love VATSIM but I hate the inflexibility, Radar Contact but don't like the interface lack of AI support, etc so in the end I went back to the default ATC. While it is lacking in complex commands, it does its job with mimimum hastle.I think if someone came up with 24 hour full time ATC that was fully staffed it would be the holy grail. But I doubt that will happen any time soon.Regards,Mike T.