Essentialy I agree with Mike T. I would add two ponts in respect to online flying: 1) It is more time and energy consuming 2) It is often times unpredictable. Both things can be good for some people and bad for others.Oh and another thing: I thought the Holy Grail was in "Le Louvre"? }( Regards,

>>I think if someone came up with 24 hour full time ATC that was>fully staffed it would be the holy grail. But I doubt that>will happen any time soon.>>Regards,>>Mike T. Well that would be awesome! the only way i can see that happening is to start up a pay service, but .... there is a can of wormsciao!Brian S

>-VATSIM/IVAO - HUGE gaps in coverage many times requiring you>to contact center to get IFR and taxi clearance, no AI traffic>frequently causes empty airports and empty expanses of skies. >Flying is dictated by time where ATC is online and in areas>where ATC is online.The Vatsim ATC coverage is also dictated by the number of pilots flying online.Its very hard to get a Vatsim Controller to continue to work an area where pilots consistently do not fly to.Even with the gaps in coverage you still have areas right in the middle of the U.S and Europe where pilots don't seem to fly. Perhaps because these are not the popular destinations people like to fly to.The Vatsim Controllers are there to work planes, not watch an empty scope for 4 hours. If he doesn't get some planes to work he's either going to work ATC somewhere else where the pilots frequent, or he is going to leave Vatsim. The pilot is there to get ATC services as well, and if he doesn't get it he's going to restrict his flying to where the ATC services are regularly provided or resort to the other FS ATC resources mentioned in this thread.You need pilots to fly to these areas to attract Vatsim controllers to provide ATC to these areas. And you need ATC coverage in these areas to attract pilots willing to fly there. This voluntary sort of ad-hoc method pretty much guarantees coverage gaps, its a cycle that is very difficult to break. Like you said you have to pick your poison. Myself I prefer the sound of live ATC with real people over computer generated ATC voices and predictable programmed ATC logic. It means I have to sacrifice AI traffic, and restrict my flights to where the controllers tend to provide services.You just have to decide what aspect of ATC is most important to you and make you decision based on that.Regards.Ernie.

I started flying on VatSim about six weeks ago and I'm really enjoying it. Previously I flew with Radar Contact and Project AI traffic. There was a lot of traffic and chatter with all the major and regional carriers.While its true you probably won't get the volume of traffic on VatSim that you will with AI generated traffic, the interaction with real pilots and controllers make up for it. VatSim has events and usually on Friday nights they have TGIF. This events has several virtual carriers all flying into a single area. A few weeks ago TGIF was in Boston and I was flying in from the southwest. I was placed in holding over ORW at FL180 and was stepped down to 10,000 before being released to approach. Approach vectored me to final, used speed control and cleared me for the ILS and shipped me to the tower. Really cool.

All you need to do is to enter your depature point and your arrival point as the same and inform 'Tower' that you want to fly circuits. They won't mind a bit.Dave T. .........On the lovely warm Devon Riviera and active 'FlightSim User's Group' member at http://www.flightsimgrpuk.free-online.co.uk/

Monsoon, I am a RW pilot, instrument rated. I have flown the real thing in the clag and VFR as well as on the simulator. I think I can judge. You also miss my point....badly. I was not talking about the actual routing of the flight, but deciding where to start from and where to arrive. Sorry I insulted your precious online experience. Given a choice between the flying real world, going through the bluss and blunder of setting up online flying and default ATC, online flying is a distant dead last. Been there, done that, missing the hair folicles from pulling it out.

>and restrict my flights to where>the controllers tend to provide services.Are thsese specific airport or is it region based? For example what's my chance of getting some controllers servicing Anchorage, Alaska?Michael J.

I know that I have seen Anchorage center online once in a blue moon, if there is traffic and if there is an event in motion. Otherwise you will be flying alone. Secondly, You won't get CLRD, GRND, DEP, CNTR, APPR, TWR in the vast majority of cases. You MAY find ANC CTR online, and you will speak to him/her for all ATC facilities.That goes back to the original drawback, you are restricted as to when you can fly and where. Personally, for me, that is a restriction that I can't live with no matter how much I DO enjoy VATSIM ATC because it brings so much to the table.Listening to channel 9 my UAL flight to FRA last weekend, I am reminded how imperfect pilots and controllers are and it is nothing like the perfect talk/readback world of FS ATC or Radar contact. Pilots give the wrong callsign (my UAL flight did to ground it was hillarious!), controllers give headings and then change their minds, expedites, speed restrictions. Its not even about the procedures as it is about the basic *human* interaction. With that said, I wonder what the interest in a fully staffed ATC service would be at around $25 per year or something to that effect? Hmmmm...any takers? I know that I would in a second!!!!Regards,Mike T.

Count me in:-) Dan