Carenado 350I King Air released beware

[KenG 492]

You clearly have no idea how torque is measured in a PT6A-42 engine.  

[FDEdev 955]

Sure you are correct Mr speed break.  Just wanted to post that Carenado/Alabeo know how to simulate drag correctly without the spoiler crutch. Should have stayed out of this useless discussion!

[KenG 492]

Now we devolve to name calling. I am not writing a Thesis, typos happen.

[WarpD 824]

Mr. Polizei (a.k.a. police)...

 

You are arguing with an actual King Air pilot/CFI for type training.  You really think you know ask much, let alone more than he does?  Seriously?

 

Also... I suspect negative torque in a PT6 would probably snap a shaft or two... To go negative would require a level of resistance that the mechanics isn't really designed for.

 

But hey, what do I know? :smile:

[whamil77 183]

I worked my way through college flying an E90 as well as other assorted airplanes.  Having grown up in Cessnas, I always liked to land fairly slow with the nosewheel well off the runway.  I found out real quickly that you had better not put the E90 into reverse with the nosewheel still well off the runway.  The airplane would pitch down rather violently and put real pressure on the nose strut.  It was also pretty uncomfortable for the passengers, particularly those in the aft seats.  In discussions with the King Air instructors at Beechcraft, it turns out that flow over the horizontal tail, not the wing, is most often the culprit in the pitching down with a big power reduction.  There is considerable down force on the tail in the flare and during rollout if the nose is being held off.  A chop in power or worse, going into reverse, severely impinges the flow around the tail and greatly reduces the down force resulting in the nose falling. 

 

I never flew a T-tail King Air so I don't know if the horizontal stabilizer is far enough above the disturbed airflow to alleviate the problem.  I have often wondered if Beech went to the T-tail to get around the pitch-down problem, or at least mitigate it. 

[FDEdev 955]

@Ken, sorry but 'speed break' isn't a typo it's a word combination definitely only fake/armchair pilots use.

@Ed, how do you know he's a real pilot and have you ever heard of an NTS system and do you know why the PT6 doesn't need it?

@whamill77. Good points. Using reverse while the nosewheel is in the air is generally a bad idea as chances are the reverese doesn't spool u symmetrically. 

Happy further discussing, I'm out.

[WarpD 824]

1 - NTS is a negative torque sensor.  Please note that negative torque has never been indicated in any King Air I've been in.  Doesn't mean it's impossible... but I find it highly unlikely due to the free turbine design.

2 - Using reverse while any wheels are in the air is not supposed to be done, not just a bad idea.  It takes a spectacularly bad pilot to intentionally lift the throttles over the idle stop to engage ground fine range and then lift over the reverse stops to engage reverse pitch as well while any wheels are still airborne.  Under "Normal Landing" checklist... it states Power Levers... IDLE and then After Touchdown: Power Levers... LIFT AND SELECT GROUND FINE.  The term "touchdown" typically represents all wheels on the ground... not just the ones you like most.  Just saying...

 

As for "how do you know"... first I tend to trust a person who has a name over someone who doesn't, for what that's worth.  I also have seen far more conversations regarding King Airs involving Ken than this one.  So... let's just say there's a great deal of evidence suggesting he's telling the truth... shall we?  There's nothing to indicate any authority on the subject you have... and your resorting to name calling and taunting tends to indicate trolling, not knowledge.

 

As for my credentials... I developed FAA certified AATDs for the C90GTi and the 350i.  That's flight dynamics, systems behavior and Pro Line 21 avionics suite. So... there you have it.

[FDEdev 955]

Reverse application has nothing to do with 'a spectacularly bad pilot', it depends on the plane type. 

On basically every jet airliner you certainly don't wait until the nosewheel is on the ground.

You unlock the thrust reverses immediately after mainwheel touchdown.

On some types it's even possible and approved to open them already in the flare.

Bad idea with some turboprops, as has been demonstrated at Farnborough with the DHC-5. 

Other turboprops like the PC-6 can even fly the whole approach and landing in beta.  

[WarpD 824]

And now... you're talking apples and oranges.

 

We're discussing King Airs... not jets, certainly not airliners.  Unlocking reversers is not the same as applying reverse thrust, though you appear to equate them equally.  My discussion and my statements are in regards to the King Airs.  I never mentioned any other aircraft with regards to my statements.

 

On the King Air beta range is not reverse thrust range.  Beta range is typically referring to ground fine and does not offer actual reverse thrust as the engines are maintained at idle throughout the ground fine beta range.

 

You are mixing things up quite a bit at this point.

[KenG 492]

King Air 350i AFM

 

 

Couldn't be more clear to me... 

 

But, a former PC-6 pilot flying a King Air decided the procedures taught by professional instructors with years of experience were WRONG and his experience was RIGHT. Nearly cost the crew and six passengers their lives. 

 

Beechcraft then added more language to the warning:

 

Do not lift power levers in flight. Lifting the power levers in flight or moving the power levers in flight below the flight idle position could result in nose down pitch and a descent rate leading to aircraft damage and/or injury to personnel.

 

[FDEdev 955]

@Ed

1. Didn't discover anything in your above post that you are only talking about King Airs.

2. Don't know why you think that I equate idle reverse and reverse trust. (but there are jets which can even use max reverse thrust in flight, so much for the difference between unlock and thrust).

3. The PC-6 isn't a jet and can land in beta.

4. FYI, beta has nothing to do with ground fine. Beta simply defines the area where the blade angle is being controlled by the throttle and not the propeller lever.  

5. BTW, a 'typical' (whatever this is) touchdown certainly doesn't mean all wheels as no plane with a nosegear is supposed to touchdown with all 3 wheels at the same time and this contradicts everything written in various Boeing etc manuals.

 

Over and out

[WarpD 824]

OMG... you're kidding... right?

 

Now you are indeed trolling.

 

 1 - The forum name "B350i King Air FSX | P3D" 

 2 - Beta isn't idle reverse either.

 3 - It's not a King Air either and once again... beta is not reverse thrust.

 4 - No, beta is defined as a range of throttle movement where the only thing changing is the propeller blade angle.  Ground fine is the only area of throttle movement that does not change fuel flow.

 5 - This is the kind of response that marks one as a troll.  This is a Beechcraft King Air discussion... not a Boeing discussion, not a Pilatus either.  King Air

 

You have 9 posts to your account and thus far it's been some spectacular trolling.

[FDEdev 955]

5. So according to your logic I'm a troll because you think that a 3-point touchdown with a King Air is 'typical'? Seriously?

[KenG 492]

Ed never said anything about a 3-point touchdown. That was your very incorrect assumption. 

 

Ed simply stated something that taught at professional flight schools for the King Air and that is to not lift the power levers until the nose gear has touched down.

 

This is based on experience in operating the aircraft in a manner that is safe, efficient and comfortable for the passengers. 

[FDEdev 955]

Posted by Ed: The term touchdown typically represents all wheels on the ground.

 

There are 2 point and 3 point touchdowns and most manuals state e.g.: after touchdown lower the nosewheel onto the runway. 

Not much room for Interpretation IMO.