New User: MCE+PF3 = Super-Duper-Uber-Frustration

[MattM1121 1]

Greetings,

 

A little history; after 5+ years I've decided to start using an external ATC program once again. After doing some research it seemed to me that MCE+PF3 was a good combination. One reason I picked MCE was due to ATC and VR. Using FSCrew and Majestic DASH8 I figured it couldn't be bad. 

 

I'm running into problems that are killing me. Testing these products is very time consuming and difficult. As an example I started yesterday morning at 5AM and finally quit near midnight. (Now that's a dedicated flight simmer)

 

1. MCE VR seems way off and unable to recognize simple requests;

 

I'm assuming - after reading some other posts - that MCE is expecting a specific phrase during a specific state. However, reading the documentation there's supposedly multiple ways to same the same thing.  Using something like "Say again" has half a dozen examples. The only one that would work occasionally is "say again please". 

 

When requesting takeoff from tower the "Request" would result in "West IFR Clearance" or something odd like that, After which tower would send be back to ground for another odd reason. 

 

It's obvious to me that the VR is just not working for me. I've done the training within Windows and MCE multiple times. I've tested my voice and VR using FS2Crew and haven't run into problems there. So I'm going to have to conclude that MCE's VR is somehow not recognizing a correct phrase. 

 

How can this be tested without having to fire up all the applications and running through each state? It's awfully time consuming doing it that way.

 

2. Feedback from controller.

 

This part I don't think I fully understand. Let's say Delivery gives me a clearance and I read it back. Am I expected to hear something like "Read back correct. Contact blah blah blah" ? 

 

Is there supposed to be ack or feeback from controllers at all? 

 

This is enough for now. After a few days of this I'm quite frustrated and don't want to rant and rave.

 

Thanks for any input about this.

 

-Matt

 

 

 

[MattM1121 1]

Ok, I see in a previous thread that if MCE can't recognize if it's GA or Airliner then it'll have issues with parsing and can cause sill (or garbage) callbacks. 

 

I'll see if I can pinpoint what  MCE is trying to establish.

[starter 8]

Hi Matt,

 

i was in the same posion as you are now.

The way i started to learn is with PF3 in vc mode 2. To learn the commands. Now i'm in vc 1 mode.

PF3 is alot off "roger" thing which is driving me crazy sometimes.

 

I'm only flying IFR so for takeoff i use : "tower "callsign" runway xx, ready for departure"

 

For the readback you have to say: "roger, callsign, is cleared to echo hotel alpha mike, squawk xxxx.

 

Maybe you can try this. :smile:

 

At the moment i ran into 2 problems: lost of commands (due to me transmitting and controller/pilot is talking thru it and commands gets not recognized anymore!!! )

And hotkey 5 (cleared of the active runway)

 

Best regards

[MattM1121 1]

Hi starter,

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

I found my first issue was how I represented my GA Piper PA-128 in PF3. By giving it a "Piper" designation as an airline I think it caused serious issues with MCE thinking it wasn't a GA aircraft. Once I removed that and just gave it a call-sign of "six Delta Lima" most of the garbage response was resolved. There are still some problems though.

 

When airborne I can't find any way to request a position report with an altimeter setting. The only thing that works is if I physically press the "9" hotkey. Overall the documentation for PF3 is non-existent. Although there is a document for PFE, it's really hit or miss using it. The document itself is difficult to use. I find it frustrating that they have good documentation and examples for FSX and RC4, but nothing really for PFE/3. 

 

To be fair to the MCE developers, their site has nothing stating that it works with PF3. So I'm actually working with something that is technically not supported. 

 

I'll try your recommendation about using VC(x) to get a feel for PF3. I appreciate the input.

 

I'm still confused about the readback to the controller. How do we know that the readback is correct for delivery? Or if we can move on to the next controller or contact ground? I'm finding that pretty frustrating as well. Anyway, thanks again.

 

-Matt

[FS++ 708]

The document itself is difficult to use. I find it frustrating that they have good documentation and examples for FSX and RC4, but nothing really for PFE/3. 

 

Maybe a point with documentation. After writing an entire library (Go to C:\Program Fils (x86)\Multi Crew Experience\Docs\ folder to see what I mean) that very few read you kind of become reticent.

 

PF3 is now fully supported.

From our perspective, it's the same as PFE. The ground breaking feature being the ability to just select a flight plan and go flying, as opposed to the "adventure creation process" step users had to go through with PFE.

 

There are minor changes MCE needs to consider, like reading hotkeys assignments, call-sign from "PF3.ini" instead of "PF_Emulator.ini", and maybe another thing or two, but apart from that, we handle them the same way.

 

Also, the ATC grammars are designed in a way that real world pilots shouldn't have to look-up the documentation. Occasionally have to update the speech grammars to make them richer. If you speak a particular message, and it doesn't seem to be accepted, contact support, and if it's a valid ATC verbiage, will add it to the PF3/PFE grammar.

 

A request for taxi or takeoff will always be the same whether you're under PF3, PFE, RC4 or Native ATC. It's just that MCE handles the result differently. Sending relevant hotkeys (as read from ini) to PF3 or RC4, or reading the Native ATC window and selecting the correct option.

 

Feel free to use the verbiage provided in RC4 manual if you aren't well versed with ATC jargon.

 

As you found out, Callsign is crucial, as it determines which speech grammar file MCE will load. One is optimized for airliners, and another one for GA aircraft.

 

I suggest you use our speech training tool to help your machine better understand the way you speak digits and NATO Alphabet.

 

Click Start->All Apps->Multi Crew Experience->Tools->Speech training.

 

Go through <ATC phraseology> topic and it should improve things.

 

PTT switch operation is also important. When you hold it down, MCE suspends all commands for interacting with FO and enables those for ATC.

 

The opposite happens when you release it.

 

With this in mind, Do not start transmitting before MCE has switched to ATC mode (the hint being the background humming sound). Equally, do not release PTT before the entire message has been transmitted.

[MattM1121 1]

Greetings Gerald,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

 

 

Maybe a point with documentation. After writing an entire library (Go to C:\Program Fils (x86)\Multi Crew Experience\Docs\ folder to see what I mean) that very few read you kind of become reticent.

 

Agreed. On the same token large amounts of documentation can be daunting. End users rarely RTFM, and I'm no stranger to that. 

 

It's good to know that PF3 is fully supported. 

 

There are a few issues that I'm dealing with that makes the integration within my personal flightsim culture difficult. 

 

1. ATC has always been a button input my entire sim career. So it's no wonder to me that I became severely frustrated when I tried to change that. It didn't integrate well with me due to such a dynamic change. This will require training.

 

2. I didn't fully understand MCE's integration with FSX and PFE. Again a huge change that I didn't recognize as needing more in-depth training. Being in the first quarter of the 21st century we've become quite dependent on intuitive software. I'm not saying MCE isn't, just the expectation of end users can be unrealistic at times. (I'm really pointing the finger at me here)

 

So in essence it's about training and understanding the operations. That's where I was really getting frustrated. Starter's suggestion about doing some flights first at level V3 with PF3 was a very good idea. After 3 or 4 fights I understand now what's expected for different states and situations. 

 

 

 

I suggest you use our speech training tool to help your machine better understand the way you speak digits and NATO Alphabet.
 
Click Start->All Apps->Multi Crew Experience->Tools->Speech training.
 
Go through topic and it should improve things.

 

I did the training multiple times and added words to the MCE custom dictionary that I thought it was having difficulties with. It's a just a matter of sorting out now what works for me and what doesn't. Since I'm nearly deaf I tend to slur my words so if MCE doesn't recognize a phrase I add to the Windows custom dictionary to ensure the VR understands my pronunciations.

 

Again, I appreciate your input about MCE and PF3.  I'm looking forward to getting proficient with both.

 

-Matt

[starter 8]

Hi Matt,

 

if the readback is correct the controller will say "readback correct, contact ground on xxx.xx when ready for push and start".

After your done your push and start,you can say "ground, callsign ready to taxi" and you'll get a standby or taxi instruction. Ack with "taxi to runway xx, callsign"

 

When in the air, when your ack is recognized, you'll hear "(roger), callsign" .

 

I haven't tried that position report yet, (flying most heavies in europe) as i'm trying to get PF3 working better.

 

But like Gerald said. With RC4 commands i'm coming a big step further. :smile:

 

Best regards

[Helix1250 3]

Hi Matt,

 

I just wanted to say that ATM I think the VFR side of PF3 has had some issues. I believe Dave at OCS will be looking at them sometime soon, so VFR flights might be a little irratic with commands from ATC.

 

Here's one such post on there forum. http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2058

 

Regards Rob