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Michael Moe

another 4K/2160P TV question/help for P3Dv3

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Hi,

 

I have come across this cheap TV from Philips and was hoping you guys could help with these specification

 

 

 • Computerindgange(input) on all HDMI: at 60 Hz, op to 4K Ultra HD 3840x2160 •

 

Videoindgange(input) på alle HDMI: op til 4K Ultra HD 3840x2160p, ved 24, 25, 30, 50, 60 Hz

 

 

 

https://www.bilka.dk/medias/sys_master/root/ha7/h2c/9367997546526/49PUT6101.pdf

 

 

 

So it seems that the PC input is only 60HZ . Is this bad ?

 

Whats the differents between video input and PC input btw. ? :nea:

 

 

 

Thanks guys :wink:  :smile:

 

Michael Moe 

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Unless you are going to pay for a REALLY high end 4k TV, then newer 4k Tv's will 99% all be 60Hz outputting PC at 4K. A lot of the Older 4k models can only mange 3840x2160p@30Hz.

 

There is zero difference in the case of the TV you have listed as to Video and PC input. To achieve 3840x2160p@60Hz be it Video or outputting your PC, the requirements are the same. The only real difference is that your PC is likely to be the only thing that you own that you will want to output at such a resolution@60Hz. Some TV's only allow you to ouput 3840x2160p@60Hz on 1 of the 4 HDMI slots, but thankfully, newer TV's are getting better at supporting it on all HDMI channels.

 

First question, is what graphics card to you use for P3D?

 

The only cards that currently support 3840x2160p@60Hz are Nvidia 9 series cards and the 1070/1080 GTX.

 

No current AMD cards support this resolution, Current AMD cards can only manage 3840x2160p@30Hz, although the new yet to be released AMD cards will support 3840x2160p@60Hz and support HDR rendering.

 

The graphics card has to be HDMI 2.0 capable like the 9 series Nvidia and above cards. HDMI 2.0a is a requisite to support HDR rendering. The only cards on the market that support HDMI 2.0a HDR are the Nvidia 1070/1080, although the TV you have listed doesn't support HDR anyway, so It's a moot point, and from a technical standpoint I couldn't see why 9 series Nvidia cards couldn't support HDR with a firmware upgrade.

 

HDR is not to be confused with the hdr settings that are actually in P3D, they are not the same thing,

 

Have a look around and see if you can find the input lag of the TV listed somewhere in a review possibly. Input lag isn't going to make too much of a difference in P3D, but if you play any other games it will. Some 4k TV's have horrendous input lag compared to their 1080p counterparts.

 

The TV will ideally need to support 3840x2160p RGB 4:4:4 Chroma subsampling otherwise, you will lose the full colour gamut available from your PC to your TV. Try and look for reviews to see if the TV can do this. A lot of UHD TV's that say they can output 3840x2160p@60Hz can only output at 4:2:0 YCbCr which is a limited colour output ( The colour is compressed ).

 

I hope this isn't too confusing for you. If there is anything that you don't understand, then please ask and I will try and help.

 

Their is a lot more technical stuff I could add to be honest about what I think people should be looking for when buying a UHD TV, but I'm not sure that would help you.

 

For information I game on a 55" 4K Sony Bravia 3D HDR Android TV and I love it, but I've been gaming using HDTV's for the last 10 years. I genuinely don't remember the last monitor that I owned.

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Thanks alot. I took the chance and bought it.

 

I ordered HDMI 2.0 cables online so i have not tested the TV yet. Its primary for P3D and a little Project cars so i am exided.

 

Thanks Michael Moe

 

GTX970SC in SLI

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The TV/Monitor should allow you to select the Input type ... there is no reason you have to select "computer".  If the monitor only allows 60Hz with RGB input, then you can change your digital color space output via nVidia control panel to YCbCr which is "standard" for video input and will provide those refresh rates.

 

Cheers, Rob.


Here is a video using YCbCr at 60Hz with 4:2:0 (limited)

 

 

Here is a video using RGB at 30Hz

 

 

Compare videos after I set time/day to the same in each.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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The TV/Monitor should allow you to select the Input type ... there is no reason you have to select "computer".  If the monitor only allows 60Hz with RGB input, then you can change your digital color space output via nVidia control panel to YCbCr which is "standard" for video input and will provide those refresh rates.

 

Cheers, Rob.

Here is a video using YCbCr at 60Hz with 4:2:0 (limited)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caa5AZwHEOM

 

Here is a video using RGB at 30Hz

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDn27HpV2z8

 

Compare videos after I set time/day to the same in each.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

Thanks Rob

 

Both videoes is great. Do you need vsync and stable 60 fps in video 1 and same same but 30fps in video 2?

 

What if i dont use vsync and is happy with 25-30 fps? RGB@60 HZ OR YBCR@30HZ

 

Thanks Michael Moe

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Great Videos Rob, But a few points.

 

1 : On some 4K TV's you DO need to label your input from PC HDMI to TV as "PC" for it to enable the ability to change colour modes through Nvidia Control panel.  Not on all TV's, and it also differs from TV set to TV set from the same manufacturer depending on cost and feature set etc.

 

2 : YCbCr at 60Hz with 4:2:0 (limited) is designed for DVD/Bluray video playback as there was not enough bandwidth on the old HDMI standard to be able to encode all of the colour gamut. Some older 4K TV's/Monitors can ONLY run 3820x2160p@60hz YCbCr at 60Hz with 4:2:0 (limited) as a limitation.

 

This is NOT a problem for a decent HDMI 2.0 enabled graphics card and a decent UHD TV.  "Enhanced" colour such as deep colour on TV's like Sony's 4k which has Triluminous, or Samsung's SUHD TV's which have The NanoCrystal Matrix screens etc etc are able to output a way better colour margin than YCbCr at 60Hz with 4:2:0 (limited) which is the old REC .709 (16.7million colours) colour gamut standard specifically for movie viewing.

 

New HDMI 2.0a enabled TV's should be able to use the new REC BT2020 Colour gamut which if you have a decent deep colour display can render billions of colours at once ( this standard is required for HDR enabled displays, although this is slightly redundant at the moment as the only PC game currently available with Deep Colour enabled as far as I'm aware is Alien Isolation ).

 

No pc game is limited by the YCbCr at 60Hz with 4:2:0 (limited) standard, that is solely a video limitation that creates a compressed colour space and can also create a slighlty blurred picture ( especially on some text items ) obviously your mileage will vary depending on how good your panel is.

 

If you have a decent enough 4k panel then you definitely want to be using uncompressed YCbCr 4:4:4 or preferably RGB 4:4:4 as your output in Nvidia Control Panel. The difference in how your games/sim look will be instantly noticeable, It can also improve banding on stuff such as Sky blending etc.

 

Regards !

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If you have a decent enough 4k panel then you definitely want to be using uncompressed YCbCr 4:4:4 or preferably RGB 4:4:4 as your output in Nvidia Control Panel.

 

That's why I provided two videos, one with RGB 4:4:4 (full) and one with YCbCr 4:2:0 ... let folks decide for themselves if they see a difference between 4:2:0 and 4:4:4.  I personally don't see any significant difference ... both are impacted equally by ShadowPlay compression when recording ... however, running the real world I saw no visual difference in banding with sky, clouds, etc. etc.  

 

I can run the same tests with 4:2:0 and 4:4:4 with "still" images captured to PNG or uncompressed BMP if you like ... I'm willing to bet most can't determine which is which (that's been my experience when I've done these tests before), nobody could tell 4:2:0 from 4:4:4.

 

But you also need to consider that just about every texture represented in any sim/game has already gone thru a level of compression when created at the source.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

Do you need vsync and stable 60 fps in video 1 and same same but 30fps in video 2?

 

Yes, if you noticed in Video 1 (60Hz) I was NOT running at 60 FPS, I was around 40 FPS and you can see more stutters compared to video 2 (30Hz).

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

EDIT: but just to be clear, I do agree that 4:4:4 is better, I do agree that 60Hz is better ... and it is good to have that option, but where I disagree is that most (at least in terms of PC games/sims) will see NO difference in practical visual implementation.

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Just one question if I may as the OP has already bought his TV, so that's all good.

 

I love gaming in 4k and I couldn't go back now, but one thing that annoys me beyond belief is UI scaling of some games at UHD resolution. RTS Games are usually the biggest culprit.

 

P3D is pretty good at this apart from 1 thing : The ATC Window !

 

The ATC window text is miniscule at 4k. I sit on a sofa about 2m away from my TV and it makes the ATC text impossible to read.  Does anybody know of a way to scale the text of the ATC UI window larger at all?  I know I can drag the ATC window around and make it larger, but that doesn't increase the size of the text at all.

 

All other menu's in P3D scale perfectly and are easy to read apart from this.  Any ideas anyone?  Thank you.

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Hmmm ... let me poke around a little and see if I can get the ATC window (it may affect all windows of that type) to either scale or with larger font size ... I'll report back if I make any progress.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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My online shop send me the wrong cables (1.4) offcause :mad:

 

Could i try 2160P/30hz ? (using Nvidia Controlpanel YCbCr/30)

 

Michael Moe

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My online shop send me the wrong cables (1.4) offcause :mad:

 

Could i try 2160P/30hz ? (using Nvidia Controlpanel YCbCr/30)

 

Michael Moe

HDMI 1.4 cable should do 2160p@30Hz no problem mate.

 

The HDMI 2.0a cables I use are relatively cheap from Amazon, they are about £7 for 3 meters. We have found these to be one of the best on the Sony 4k TV Forum :

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B002U38E9O/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467300376&sr=8-1π=SY200_QL40&keywords=hdmi2.0+cable&dpPl=1&dpID=51WQJk7Jd8L&ref=plSrch

 

Hope you enjoy your new TV!

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HDMI 2.0b is the current spec ... bandwidth is still capped at 18Gpbs.  HDMI 1.4 is 10.2 Gpbs ... the HDMI 1.4 cable will be ok at 30Hz 4K, but I wouldn't recommend it for anything beyond that ... if you have a really short HDMI 1.4 cable you might be able to run 60Hz without issue ... best thing to do is get a quality HDMI 2.0 cable and see if you notice any difference (be sure to run at 60Hz 4k with HDR), if not, return the HDMI 2.0 cable, otherwise keep it.

 

Also, something not mentioned, is the panel itself ... you definitely want a 10bit panel and not an 8bit panel ... you will see gradient issues with an 8bit panel.  The Phillips documentation doesn't say if it's 10bit, but I'd be very surprised if it's not 10bit.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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Thanks everone , 

 

I just took out my BMW V12 out for a spin on Lemans on ultra with 2160P@60HZ in Nvidia Controlpanel but on a 1.4 cable i guess ?? 

 

Wow what a differents  :wink: Its so big that you actually feel your are in the cockpit. SLI 970

 also do the job nicely

 

Not sure if i am doing wrong but i can choose all resolutions and all HZ under resolution in Control Panel. Havent change anything on the TV yet.

 

Took also the NGX up and do you guys use wideview with 4k ?49" ?

 

 

Thanks alot  :smile:

 

Michael Moe

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Yes, Project Cars is awesome in 4k !

 

I do use wide view now, although it took me a long time to get used to it.

 

Enjoy your UHD gaming mate !

 

Regards.

 

Edit : I was one of the people who crowdfunded Project Cars, so thanks for buying it !

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Hmm , now i just seems to get OOM all the time using my saved config settings.

 

I just cheked my P3D.cfg settings and i have correct display entrys.

 

Is it a no go using my old 1080P saved config files ?

 

Relativ high settings in EKCH gives me OOM in 3.3.5 now

 

Michael Moe

 

 

edit: Seems like i am about 400-450mb short on VAS going to 4K. is this normal ?

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Seems like i am about 400-450mb short on VAS going to 4K. is this normal ?

 

Definitely NOT normal.  I've been running 4K at extreme settings with 300+ add-ons ... I can make it OOM, but it's something I have to do on purpose (it takes some work) not my typical day to day flights.

 

You should NOT need to do anything with your P3D.cfg ... it should detect and setup 4K resolution automatically ... are you manually editing the prepar3d.cfg?  I'd recommend:

 

1.  You delete your prepar3d.cfg, P3D will create a default one and then use P3D UI (do not manually edit) to set your graphics settings

2.  Delete your shaders folder (i.e. C:\Users\Rob\AppData\Local\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v3\Shaders)

 

I don't use EMT or any 3rd party shader products and I don't use NI.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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thanks Rob,

 

I was running my ASUS 3840 x 2160 at 60Hz, but after watching your 2nd video, I tried 30Hz which on my settings (Unlimited, vsync, triple buffering) suddenly made the sim a lot smoother.

 

Do you recommend altering the monitor to 30Hz for simming or does it just come down to personal preference?

 

Cheers Dave

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Definitely NOT normal.  I've been running 4K at extreme settings with 300+ add-ons ... I can make it OOM, but it's something I have to do on purpose (it takes some work) not my typical day to day flights.

 

You should NOT need to do anything with your P3D.cfg ... it should detect and setup 4K resolution automatically ... are you manually editing the prepar3d.cfg?  I'd recommend:

 

1.  You delete your prepar3d.cfg, P3D will create a default one and then use P3D UI (do not manually edit) to set your graphics settings

2.  Delete your shaders folder (i.e. C:\Users\Rob\AppData\Local\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v3\Shaders)

 

I don't use EMT or any 3rd party shader products and I don't use NI.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

Hi Rob

 

I did not edit Prepar3D.cfg  . Only entry is AM=85

 

Forgot to delete the shaders - will try that

 

EKCH Gate A20 i am down to 700MB free vas 4K in the NGX vs 1150MB 1080P

 

I also dont use EMT and 3rd party shader programs in 3.3.5

 

Thanks

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Do you recommend altering the monitor to 30Hz for simming or does it just come down to personal preference?

 

It comes down to your min FPS ... you can run more add-ons and higher graphics settings if you only need to hit 30hz.  To avoid stutters (long frames) for 60Hz you'll need to have min FPS of 60.  It's a lot easier to sustain min FPS 30 than 60.

 

 


EKCH Gate A20 i am down to 700MB free vas 4K in the NGX vs 1150MB 1080P

 

You'll need to provide more details (all add-ons installed and how those add-ons are configured, all 5 pages of graphics settings).

 

Cheers, Rob.

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It comes down to your min FPS ... you can run more add-ons and higher graphics settings if you only need to hit 30hz.  To avoid stutters (long frames) for 60Hz you'll need to have min FPS of 60.  It's a lot easier to sustain min FPS 30 than 60.

 

 

 

You'll need to provide more details (all add-ons installed and how those add-ons are configured, all 5 pages of graphics settings).

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

Thanks Rob

 

Shader deleted and .cfg and now there is only about 1-150mb differents  :wink:

 

Michael Moe

 

PS any other tips other than reducing to 30 HZ ? Are you using videwiew ? and zoom settings ?

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I don't use Wide-view Aspect Ratio ... I have my eye position controls mapped to yoke buttons so I can move up/down, forward/back, zoom is usually max zoom-out, but I also fly with TrackIR frequently.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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It comes down to your min FPS ... you can run more add-ons and higher graphics settings if you only need to hit 30hz. To avoid stutters (long frames) for 60Hz you'll need to have min FPS of 60. It's a lot easier to sustain min FPS 30 than 60.

 

Hi Rob,

 

I just want to start by clarifying that I'm not trying to be argumentative at all, I love discussing nerdy stuff and trying to learn stuff as hopefully it benefits all of us. :smile:

 

Surely you should ALWAYS run your monitor/TV's at the highest refresh rate available that it can manage at the resolution desired.

 

Running a 4k TV or indeed any monitor at it's native resolution can't induce stuttering. Using SLI can, All of us trying to get epic looking flight sims with hundreds of add-ons on our crazy powerful pc's that are trying to run Sims based on 20 year old code bases can too.

 

I don't really understand what you mean by  a "long frame" above.  The Hz in reference to our TV/monitor are all the same speed, one can't be longer than another. If you are referring to frame pacing, then I agree that this varies, but your TV or monitor still doesn't care.

 

If your panel has a native refresh rate of 60Hz@UHD resolution, your monitor/TV doesn't care that you are only outputting 20 fps, 30fps or 40fps etc. Hz don't equate to fps. Hz is a measurement of how many still images it can render per second NOT how many fps your graphics card(s) frame buffer can output per second (fps).

 

The only time your monitor or TV will run into problems is when your graphics card outputs MORE frames per second than your panel can render, which can cause screen tearing and that's why have v-sync to counteract the tearing. Unfortunately V-sync also adds input lag.

 

The problem with lowering your 60Hz panel to 30Hz is that you have instantly doubled your input lag and doubled your motion blur for 0 gains.

 

If dropping the refresh rate of your TV to 30Hz could combat stutters at 30fps, then why do Sony and Microsoft for example output the PS4 and Xbox One at 1080p@60Hz when display output is set to auto, when probably 75% of console games all run internally locked at 30fps? They don't as all it would do is add input lag for zero gains.

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You want to run you monitor's refresh at or lower than your minimum FPS (assumes you run with Vsync, triple buffer, and unlimited in P3D).  This will ensure you have the least variance in time frames and avoids "long frames" ... long frames (often observed as stutters) are frames that take longer to render by the CPU/GPU such that the "new" rendered frame is NOT completed at the time of the monitors sync cycle.  30Hz has a sync cycle of about 33.3ms, 60 Hz has a sync cycle of about 16ms ... so if a frame takes 40ms to it will visually present itself at a stutter for a monitor with a 30hz refresh ... the render is 6.7ms late.

 

Input lag is related to FPS (rendering of frames).  Your control device will present it's raw data based on it's polling frequency ... so your device could be operating at 100Hz but if your CPU/GPU can only capture that input data at 20 FPS (or 20 times per second, which is 1/5th of the actual data the device is producing) the CPU/GPU it takes that "single" data point and will ignore the rest and use that data point to render a frame ... the ignored data is what presents itself as "input lag".

 

Panels don't have a "native" refresh rate, they do have a native resolution.  If you notice, most panel will list refresh frequencies in which they can operate at 25,29,30,50,60,120,240Hz.

 

20 year old code?  Don't understand that reference?  P3D is 2 month old code?  XPlane beta is 2 week old code?  You're assuming "old code" is bad code or inefficient code, having programmed for 30+ years and still coding, much of my older code is actually more efficient than my newer code and tends operate faster.  In fact, if you wanted extremely fast code it would primarily be done in Assembly language (referred to as ASM which is a lower level language than C, C++, C#, etc.) ... only the macho programmers operate at that low a level.

 

Motion blur and/or display lag is not related to refresh frequency ... it's related to pixel response times.  For example I have some cheaper Acer 2K monitors that have very poor pixel response time (still at 60Hz refresh) and I can visually see ghosting and blurring when I'm doing very rapid motion.

 

I have no idea what Sony or Microsoft consoles do, I have a PS3 but I use it exclusively for NetFlix and it's blu-ray player.  If these device restrict themselves to 30 FPS then it's most likely a result of wanting to be compatible with older TV's that can only operate at 30hz ... but again I have no idea if consoles have Vsync options or not.

 

Here is an older example of some time frame analysis I did with P3D going back to V3.0:

 

66ff6bb54b5fe7efa7797e2270d9810c.jpg

 

 

51963e6f82a7c502be1a6975802e2042.jpg

 

As you can see with Vsynch OFF and unlimited, even though the average time is less (23.7 ms) and FPS is higher (42), the frequency of long frames (>33.3ms) is MUCH higher which will visually appear as "stutters".

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

EDIT: the TV/monitor does NOT "render" anything, it merely takes color data provided by the GPU and sets each pixel with that color data ... the CPU/GPU does ALL the rendering.  Some TV's can "buffer" images, in the case of games/sim, you actually do NOT want your TV to buffer anything ... buffering in TV/monitors is primarily there for movies and not for computer generated data.

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A little confused here

Should i set my resolution to 4K@25 HZ and lock 30fps inside P3D with or without VSync ?

At least i can try it out

Thanks

Michael Moe

PS ! I have both RGB and YbCBR options in Nvidia Control Panel up to 4K/ 60HZ and 12 bit or 8 bit

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