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Alaska Minimums

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They must have some super low minimums at Alaska Airline!  I assume their own internal RNAV approach plates are designed for LIRF.  They are actively landing in this on runway 26!!

 

PAJN 162053Z 00000KT 1SM R08/P6000FT -SN BR BKN003 OVC009 01/M01 A2924 RMK AO2 SLP900 P0007 60009 T00061006 53007 $



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Alaska Airlines led the industry into RNP approaches, and you can thank them for that HGS in the B737 too. It is interesting to note that the minimums for the only LIDO published approach, LDA X 08, is 3200 ft!  I notice there is a FAA RNAV(GPS) V RWY 8 approach plate, mins for it are better at 1880-2.  Neither approach could be flown with that METAR.  I wonder why LIDO doesn't publish the RNAV plate?

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Yup, 300+ feet mins o. That RNP .15 I believe.

 

Great, thanks for alerting me of this weather. I will head over there ASAP !!!

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Where are you getting the plates? I've heard the Alaska Airlines virtual website has some but they're likely dated.

 

Yeah Dan, I wish they were published. It'd be nice we could see them. Out of all the airlines I look into for flight plans in the US, Alaska seems to be the only one doing this. All the other major carriers follow the FAA published routes. I've seen a couple small carriers do it and cargo sometimes but not enough to be bothered by it. It kinda seems that even their Horizon carrier uses public DPs and STARs mostly. Oh and I don't like the HGS lol. I don't really understand it very well and find it harder to use than just sitting back flying. Maybe if I found a better tutorial on what to pay attention to and what to line up for the proper path. I'm just so used to the standard ILS glidepath for ILS and RNAV approaches, and even just visual cues for hand flying VMC approaches. Sooner or later I'd like to learn it. It looks pretty on the NGX and Q400.

 

 

PAJN minimums are down to 400' as of four minutes ago. TAFs are calling for 300' btw.

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Oh and I don't like the HGS lol. I don't really understand it very well and find it harder to use than just sitting back flying.

 

The HGS takes time to get used to, I wouldn't use it the first few months I had the NGX but I decided that since even SWA is now using it I should give it a try.  Same tips as for flying any FD, don't chase the bubble and fly attitude first. Pay attention to the aircraft pitch and bank at least as much as you watch the flight vector cue. Stick to the PRI display until you are comfortable, the AIII is intended for autoland CAT III approaches anyway and I rarely let the autopilot have all the fun. Learn the symbols of course.

 

Now I really miss the HGS when I get in  the 777, especially on departures.

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The HGS takes time to get used to, I wouldn't use it the first few months I had the NGX but I decided that since even SWA is now using it I should give it a try.  Same tips as for flying any FD, don't chase the bubble and fly attitude first. Pay attention to the aircraft pitch and bank at least as much as you watch the flight vector cue. Stick to the PRI display until you are comfortable, the AIII is intended for autoland CAT III approaches anyway and I rarely let the autopilot have all the fun. Learn the symbols of course.

 

Now I really miss the HGS when I get in  the 777, especially on departures.

 

It's just so foreign to me.  I realize the other aspects of flying were foreign but I just haven't had the desire to learn it yet.  I will likely give it a try soon.  I tried it on the Q400 but found it distracting. 

Westjet loves RNP operations as well. They have their own approaches all over Canada.

 

 I too started a flight in the NGX into PAJN after seeing the thread, just on the way down from LVD to STVNS.

 

 

 Here's an older RNP plate and the navdata is available here in the library. http://s938.photobucket.com/user/ForgottoBid/media/Temp7_zps08e313ed.png.html

 

Thanks, I'll give it a try.  No way to get in there without the right RNP and plates.  The minimums are just too low.  I tried a while ago and couldn't even see the runway at 200 feet.  I think the visibility was a factor.  Lots of snow.

Current METAR and TAF. 

 

image2.png

 

image1.png

Trying to see how an approach to runway 8 looked using the published RNAV.  No dice.  :lol:

 

2016_10_16_17_24_15_25.jpg

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Just in case you have trouble with the link, forum user Stearmandriver made a thread in this forum with a file with the navdata. The plates you can get where indicated. When you update your new navigraph AIRAC cycle, make sure that you make a backup of PAJN, or it will overwrite it.

 

This data is only for simming. As far as I am aware, the procedure is ASA owned with exclusive ownership. It would be illegal for anyone else to use the procedure in real life.

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Chris what app is that for reading metars?

 

Regards

Chris

 

It's called Takeoff in the Apple app store.  Its 5 USD.  I really like it.  Here's their website: http://takeoffaviationweather.com/

 

They have an Android version too it appears.  I use it for planning and checking METARs enroute.  Always matches Active Sky on-screen weather window, but negates the need to pull up AS to check for realism sake.  Plus it's nice to use as a general WX app around town.  I use and RadarScope for Wx, both aviation related and everyday use.

Just in case you have trouble with the link, forum user Stearmandriver made a thread in this forum with a file with the navdata. The plates you can get where indicated. When you update your new navigraph AIRAC cycle, make sure that you make a backup of PAJN, or it will overwrite it.

 

This data is only for simming. As far as I am aware, the procedure is ASA owned with exclusive ownership. It would be illegal for anyone else to use the procedure in real life.

 

I downloaded the procedures from that virtual site.  Thx.

The HGS takes time to get used to, I wouldn't use it the first few months I had the NGX but I decided that since even SWA is now using it I should give it a try.  Same tips as for flying any FD, don't chase the bubble and fly attitude first. Pay attention to the aircraft pitch and bank at least as much as you watch the flight vector cue. Stick to the PRI display until you are comfortable, the AIII is intended for autoland CAT III approaches anyway and I rarely let the autopilot have all the fun. Learn the symbols of course.

 

Now I really miss the HGS when I get in  the 777, especially on departures.

 

 I went ahead and gave the HGS a go just now.  Mainly since my flight into KBOI was messed up d/t the ILS 10R navdata inserting weird waypoints that possibly mimicked a procedural turn.  IDK, but I didn't want that and by the time I thought to look I was too close and too high, so I went around.  I always remember to look at the PLAN window as I enter my approach too, since a lot of times it's not a smooth transition. 

 

Anyhow, once stable I zoomed into the HGS and did pretty well keeping the donut on target.  I still find it a little weird.  I think I'd prefer it for lower vis landings.  Here's the landing though - centerline:

 

2016_10_17_0_21_52_726.jpg

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Just my personal disclaimer: I'm not the one who leaked that approach plate. I just built the procedure on that plate into the navdata file that's available for download. I figured since someone else had already leaked the plate, I could at least code it. That procedure as depicted is a little obsolete, but it still works fine (minus an occasional GPWS warning I wasn't able to avoid).

 

Just didn't want folks thinking I was leaking proprietary stuff. I gotta admit, the Southeast Alaska flying is still the most fun flying I've ever done at an airline.

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Pardon my asking but just out of curiosity: now that the procedure exists anyone knows it is right down the middle of the channel width.

 

What really matters is that it absolutely CANNOT be used in real life, as the real navdata does not exist for anyone else and if it was available there is no authorization for it. Is there any danger from that leak ?

 

Personaly, I admire and bonus points for Alaska Airlines (I love flying in the airline) for the way they designed these procedures.

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It's a good question. Is there any danger from the leak? Almost certainly not. Anyone who's ever flown in as a passenger, or anyone who lives there, knows the route goes right up the Gastineau channel. What would be valuable is, as you point out, the actual engineering and TERPS data that goes into the route coding in the FMC, and that's nothing we as pilots have access to and it's stuff the NGX box can't really simulate anyway (RF, for example).

 

That being said, the airline takes this stuff seriously. They just finished a protracted legal battle with a competitor over whether this could remain private. The competitor lost and was finally forced to build their own procedures down the channel, though my understanding is that they aren't as low as ours (and they withdrew service from Juneau almost immediately afterwards because they couldn't court enough business from the locals).

 

Everything propriety an airline distributes to their employees is covered under a blanket sort of NDA. While I personally agree that there isn't much to glean from an approach plate, it's still against the rules to leak one.

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Andrew, you're absolved haha.

 

I can understand why they get so upset over these procedures. Especially Alaska. You guys pioneered this whole show, and now wish to preserve the work... Fair enough in my view.

 

But just gotta keep in mind, too, that there was, at the time of said pioneering, a few documents here and there released to stakeholders (airports) and publicly published with charts in them from various airlines to illustrate what rnp/rnp-ar is etc. Back then the spirit of dissemination of learnings was the order of the day, I think.

 

I'm a huge nut for these RNP procedures, not so much the specific charts and airline procedures specifically, but more the fact on how you guys moved terminal area navigation a step or three forward. I cannot wait... Cannot wait until RF is incorporated into the new PMDG NG, if they decide to do so.

 

Alaska, specifically PAJN, remains one of my most favourite destinations to fly.

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