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Guest oyvindhansen

What ever happened to customer support?

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Is it me, or is customer support quickly becoming a thing of the past?Latest case in point.I purchase Lago's Honolulu scenery because of my fondness of the area, and the fact that I lived there for over 6 years. In a word, it's brilliant. No complaints, until, that is, I asked for a little support.I purchased the scenery from SimMarket. Ok, fair enough. However, after I downloaded from SimMarket I noticed the version of the SimMarket download is 2.01.On Lago's website, their version was 2.10Well, thinking I am out of date, I look to upgrade to the latest. There's no patch from 2.01 to 2.10, so I ask on the forum about it.NO RESPONSE.Ok, then, lets ask in e-mail.After two weeks of no reply, I finally get a canned e-mail saying that I am not entitled to support, since I did not purchase it on the Lago website. Last time I checked, SimMarket did not publish the software, Lago did.Ok, let me get this straight. I have a valid key, I have a purchase record, and you won't let me download the latest version because I didn't buy it directly from you? What's the deal? That's like Microsoft saying that only those who purchased FS2004 direct get the patch.Now I don't expect upgrades for life, or even upgrades across different versions of flight sim. But this is ludicrous. Version 2.10 was the posted latest version of the product on the Lago website AT THE TIME OF MY PURCHASE!!!! Do you mean that not only do you fail to bother to give me any support, but you let your resellers sell obsolete product? (this was direct download, so CD authoring is not an excuse here)I can't even get a response on whether 2.01 and 2.10 are the same version and there's simply a misprint on the website. (That's been known to happen before.....) While I love the scenery itself, I will find myself voting with my dollar again, and will not purchase another item from Lago. I even volunteered to give them my registration key, so they could validate my sale, but they could not be bothered.Well, Lago, despite your great product, since you can't be bothered to support anyone other than those who buy from you direct, then I suppose I can't be bothered to send anymore money your way.As a customer support representative, it is really offensive when I see other companies policies towards the very people paying their bills.Yes, there are such things as unreasonable customers, and even I know that the customer is not ALWAYS right. But, is a simple response to a question regarding your versioning too much to ask. And if indeed your "resellers" are selling out-of-date product (via direct download) shouldn't you provide them with the latest code, or at a minimum provide their customers with access to the code?Lago's tagline may be "looking ahead" But, I find it quite hard to imagine that they are capable of "looking ahead" with their head so far up their own arses.

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Maybe it's better NOT to receive a reaction from Lago. Some time ago I bought their Venice scenery, which turned out to be useless with my EDimensional 3D glasses. The scenery is NOT in real 3D, bus swims all over the place just like the MSFS runway lights: even Microsoft has added some stuff that's not true 3D. I emailed Lago for some assistance, and received the reply: "We make add-ons for MSFS, not for any hardware you might happen to use", or words to that extend. I don't like companies cutting corners, and I especially don't like companies not telling you beforehand that they do. And I even less like companies who don't want to return your money if their stuff turns out to be useless with your own expensive set-up.As far as I'm concerned Lago can stuff their products straight up their donkey.Jaap Verduijn.

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>Maybe it's better NOT to receive a reaction from Lago. Some>time ago I bought their Venice scenery, which turned out to be>useless with my EDimensional 3D glasses. The scenery is NOT in>real 3D, bus swims all over the place just like the MSFS>runway lights: even Microsoft has added some stuff that's not>true 3D. >>I emailed Lago for some assistance, and received the reply:>"We make add-ons for MSFS, not for any hardware you might>happen to use", or words to that extend. I don't like>companies cutting corners, and I especially don't like>companies not telling you beforehand that they do. And I even>less like companies who don't want to return your money if>their stuff turns out to be useless with your own expensive>set-up.>>As far as I'm concerned Lago can stuff their products straight>up their donkey.>>Jaap Verduijn. Hasn't been the same since Matthis moved on. LAGO get nothing from me.Andy b

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I don't blame them for not supporting the 3D Glasses. Why should they? That is like me complaining to them that my certain joystick doesn't work right.The original issue posted is whack. If it is like that then NO WAY am I buying from Simmarket.

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Unless Lago have changed their distribution system since I last bought from them, just download the 2.10 installer from their website and install it exactly the same as the one you got from Simflight. The codes don't change because the version number does, so yours should still work.With respect to e-Dimensional glasses, I can understand why any developer would not offer support on a device that isn't theirs. What I would ask, in that situation, is what the frame rate effect on the scenery would be of making every model "true 3d", if some were turn-to-face or 2d? Would someone on an older PC - who are probably far more numerous than those using 3d-glasses - be able to run it still with the increased drawing requirements?I would agree, in any case, that Lago have changed for the worse since their "staff movements".Ian P.

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The impact would be tremendous. You'd need at least 5 (not counting the bottom which can be omitted) polies for every building in the city, considerably more if those buildings are more than simple square blocks.Each poly would have to have its own texture loaded.Doing all that would make the scenery impossible to use on all but the very highest end PCs (and probably on those too), and all that to please a few people who have 3D glasses?The potential sales volume would drop from thousands to dozens at most, while production cost would increase by an order of magnitude.Sure you could do it, but you'd have to charge several thousand Euro for the result.Since people are complaining that $30 is too much, I wonder how well that would go down...

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If Microsoft manages to make all their scenery and autogen true 3D that works perfectly with EDimensional glasses (the only exception being their runway lights), I can't help but wonder why Lago can't do it with their Venice add-on.But I'm in a pleasant mood today, so I'll give you another approach, that is just as true: the Lago Venice add-on doesn't work with Transform & Lighting. Using my EDimentional glasses WITHOUT T&L the Venice buildings are beautifully in place (with low framerates), but when I turn T&L back on they start "swimming" again (with normal framerates).From this point of view the Lago add-on DOES work with EDimensional glasses, but NOT with MSFS's Transform & Lighting. Different approach, same conclusion: bloody thing doesn't work.By the way, the dismissive email from Lago was not "post-Matthijs", but actually written by Matthijs Kok himself. But then again: he's a Dutchman, and we Dutch tend to be very impolite (wide and wicked grin)!Jaap Verduijn.

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If you've looked at the default scenery and the Venice scenery you should have noticed some differences.The density of buildings in the default scenery is low. Even in the high detail cities only one in a hundred or so buildings is modelled and then only in a very small area (like Manhattan island).Lago is modelling a far larger area in greater density.Customers would also not be content if Lago were to model the buildings at the same level of detail Microsoft does, they'd expect far greater accuracy.Then there's the little fact that Lago expects to sell a few thousand units, quite a difference from the 1 million+ that Microsoft sells.

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The final conclusion still remains that the stuff is NOT honest-to-god 3D. Jaap Verduijn.

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And if it all was, the frame rate would still go down to seconds per frame, rather than frames per second, for a lot of users who are currently happily flying around the scenery.Ian P.

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Ain't life a pisser?Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

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Did Lago promise the scenery would be 100% made of only 3d objects? Your post is the first I've ever read suggesting it to be bad to have some 2d objects, certainly its not a secret that msoft used some of these techniques.why not create a consortium of users of your glasses, perhaps the edimensional company would participate and start discussing your idea as "what if scenery addons started having only 3d objects". Might be good for a simmer conference topic.Bob

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Some people might read it like that.The statement on the product page says (quote) "done completely in 3D, no more flat 2D textures on the ground".Of course using a 3D object for a city block (instead of a single building) also qualifies for that description.

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I see. That is an odd statement.."no more flat 2d textures on the ground". I'm having trouble understanding what that means. Every texture is 2d. 3d objects are all covered in textures that are 2d. The ground, with or without an addon, is automatically 3d, I suppose you could say, in that the msfs game provides a solid elevation mesh on which to build. And everyones textures on the ground are 2d.Producing a 2d upright polygon that rotates to the user, for instance isn't described (to my mind) by the phrase "no more flat 2d textures on the ground".Cheers,Bob

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There's also Lago's statement about "all houses":"(...) The FIRST city scenery done completely in 3D, no more flat 2D textures on the ground. ALL HOUSES ARE DONE IN 3D (...)"Now, please, what other conclusion can one draw from the above quote than that the stuff is indeed in 3D? Jaap Verduijn.

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As far as I remember it's just about every building that's in 2D. Compare it with the MSFS runway lights, that swim all over the place when looked at through 3D glasses or red/blue glasses. The Lago add-on behaves like those lights ("swimming") which, as far as has been explained to me, happens with the runway lights because they are 2D, so I guess it happens to the Venice add-on houses and buildings ALSO because they are in 2D.My simple consumers opinion/expectation is that, according to their 3D hype, the Lago buildings should behave like the flightsim BUILDINGS (3D) and not like the flightsim RUNWAY LIGHTS (2D).I am quite suspicious about "secret codes" (grin!) that do not mean what they say, but that developers can use to put their clients down. Like what Lago calls "3D": apparently they interpret the term in another way than I as a consumer do. It's very easy to pull the wool over the eyes of the stupid likes of me. When some developer calls their stuff "3D" I am naive enough to believe that they ARE 3D and hence work with 3D glasses which, after all, are specifically MADE to see depth in 3D. Anyway, Lago made its position very clear: they "make add-ons for MSFS, not for any hardware" you or I might have. And quite probably their "expert interpretation" of the term 3D is quite different from my "consumer interpretation". So let them, as I said before, shove their add-on up their little donkey. Preferably with a BIG cardboard box around it.Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

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Oh, I will survive, don't worry (grin)!Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

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I could say the same... :-hahI'm not defending Lago's statements, by the way, because I don't know what they have or haven't said. By the sound of it, they haven't delivered what they say they have but, not owning the scenery product or the hardware being commented on, I am not qualified to comment on that.All I am defending is their not providing support on, what is really quite specialist, hardware that they don't make. My statement that it would cause fps to plummet was exactly that - a statement. I've spent enough time trying to nurse extra frames per second out of sub-standard PCs to be most definately qualified on *that* count!!! ;-)Serious comment, though, is that if eDimensional don't have a list of add-ons suitable or unsuitable to use with their hardware, you might like to suggest they start one? :-)Cheers,Ian P.

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Greetings Ian!Basically eDimensional glasses (for page-flipping 3D) and red/blue glasses (for anaglyph 3D) work with any add-on that is truly 3D. In fact using these glasses turns out to be a pretty good means to check whether a developer's claims of "everything is in 3D" are true or false!I fully trust you when you say that having an add-on like Venice work with true 3D all over the place would play havoc with framerates, and that won't be much fun - no disagreement there. My main issues then are that Lago's advertising is misleading, and that their attitude to a custimer who complains about that, is kind of "cavalier". "(...) I've spent enough time trying to nurse extra frames per second out of sub-standard PCs to be most definately qualified on *that* count!!! (...)"Me too, Ian, me too! I seem to always be somewhat behind when it comes to processors and video cards... possibly because I spend my money on stuff like eDimensional glasses (grin)!Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

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Hey gang,Sheez now I find a topic I can relate to. I know what you are feeling. I have purchased products not from lago but in general (you know a plane comes out and you just gotta get it). I too am starting to wonder if support exists. I don't know how some of these companies do business. Here are a few of the expierences I feel we all share:1. You purchase their product install it and something doesn't work... Ok nobody's perfect it's to be expected. You report the problem, are promised a patch because you and another 1,000 people have reported the same bug and poof! NOTHING HAPPENS!2. You purchase their product and it all works fine. MS releases a patch for FS2004 and it stops working. You ask for support and get a mail that this product was not intended for the new patch just for the old one (when you purchased the product 24 hrs before the patch came out, or even after the patch came out).3. The company develops a product and makes a killing. You send them an e-mail thanking the company for their great work and state you have some suggestions for upgrades (valid ones not things like errr... my landing gear won't come down cause you didn't tell me where the g key was on the keyboard), e.g. improvments to their model or VC a gauge that could be improved. They mail you a reply stating the product is 4 years old and they have no plans to update it.With reference to point 3 above god how stupid can these people be! Pilots are buying their product in bundles even 4 years after it was developed don't you think they will pay you again if you re-develop it for the new version of FS? I wish the developers out there would take heed of our messages as they seem to think that they are doing us a favour by developing the aircraft for us (true in a way cause I for one don't have the skill to develop an aircraft from scratch), not that we are earning them money by paying for their product. YES I agree the support for some products is bad if not non existant but our cries seem to be falling on deaf ears. One thing that would get these companies going is if Microsoft steped up one notch on the aircraft they were developing. Could you emagine how some of these vendors would feel if they (MS) would develop a product like the A320PIC that actually worked properly along side a few others of the same standard e.g. FMC's, good models etc. and released them with FS2006? I feel it would get them thinking.Just my 10c320Mad

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1) if true, inexcusable. But mostly it's not "thousands of people" but only a very few who scream very loudly and tell everyone that there's "thousands of people" having trouble even before there's a thousand units told.2) never heard that. Only thing I have seen (and that's completely logical) is companies saying you're not going to get an upgrade to the next version of FS. Nothing wrong with that, if you've not been in the industry you don't know the cost of creating such an upgrade.3) completely bogus argument on your part I'm afraid. Every time a company tells they'll create a new product but you will have to pay for it again, existing users included, there's a storm of protest from self-righteous users who think they've a right to eternal free upgrades. They're actually expecting to get a completely new product for free because they bought something 4 years ago.

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Careful. There's an unwritten rule here that does not allow one to criticize payware developer's products and/or business practices. Apparently, when one makes money from the flight sim market, one is held to a different set of standards than the rest of the business world, especially that "they seem to think that they are doing us a favour by developing the aircraft for us (true in a way cause I for one don't have the skill to develop an aircraft from scratch), not that we are earning them money by paying for their product." Note the one response already. I'm sure more will follow. In my continuing quest for freeware that outperforms payware: Try the new Project Fokker regional jet, which is a much better package than a payware regional jet I have. Mike

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