Arwen

New Yoke & Pedals - Need some help in what to buy.

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Guys, I could really use some help with what to buy, as there are way too many choices out there.  I've been looking for about a month now, reading any forum post I can find, reading the reviews. But I'm just getting more and more confused on what would meet my needs the best, and still be within my $800-$900 total budget (for both items).

My current flight controller is the Saitek X52 Flight System (joystick & throttle), which has a twist joystick that I've assigned to the rudder.

My primary flight siim is now X-Plane 11, but I also own P3D and DCS (mainly helicopters). My Saitek works fairly well for the helicopters, but I think that pedals would give me better control. The biggest issue is that I just don't have the best control with X-Plane's GA aircraft; I can usually land ok, but it rarely feel smooth (or "right").

I don't fly any large airliners, but I may eventually move up to a medium size commuter aircraft.

I'm willing to spend a bit more for a yoke and pedals, if that is necessary, but I really can't afford a $1000 yoke (or $500 pedals).  So I guess I need advice on what is good for a medium priced yoke and pedals.

ANY help will be greatly appreciated, as I've never used either, so I have no idea what to look for.

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I think most of us on budgets go for the CH or Saitek yoke and pedals. They are mix and max, meaning you could use CH Pedals with a Saitek yoke and triple throttle setup, which is what I use, or vice versa.  The cost for both is well within, actually on the lower end of your budget.

 

Sherm

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Thanks Sherm for replying.

 

I'm currently leaning towards a higher end yoke.  The GoFlight's VantEdge Yoke System in within my budget, and their GF-ProYoke System is more than I was hoping to spend, but I might consider it if the consensus is that it is worth the extra $200.  There just doesn't seem to be all that much difference between the two, other than perhaps a button or two more (which I can live without).  Any opinions on these two?

 

Rudder Pedals:

I'm currently torn between Saitek/Logitech pedals and MFG Crosswind rudder pedals.  The MFG pedals are twice the cost, but they look to be so much better, both in construction and han how adjustable they are.  My biggest concern with the MFG Crosswind pedals is how well they will work with X-Plane 11 (like will they even be recognized?).

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I just purchased a set of the MFG Crosswind pedals and a VantEdge yoke.  The pedals are incredible and cost about $300 depending on where you live. I HIGHLY recommend them!

 

The Yoke on the other is nice, but has had some issues. First the upper buttons of the hat switch did not work so it had to be sent in. I get it back and now the yoke is slightly rolling to the right. I live quite far so shipping is a pain with about 14 days in between shipping times so I haven't use it much. I will say it is incredibly smooth and precise and I like it. The QC could be better for a $500 yoke though.

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The Saitek rudder pedals are not bad, being about the cheapest. They are built pretty solid from hard ABS plastic with rubber in the footprint area and the footplates can be adjusted in size, there are also detachable heel extension plates too. They can be adjusted for tension and travel: from moving freely to reasonably stiff, via a big dial in their middle, and this all works very well. The unit has a relatively compact footprint which will fit under most desks easily, and they are weighty enough to stay where you put them without moving around if you have them on a carpet. I've had mine for years and they work just fine, so they are clearly built to a pretty high standard.

Like all PC hardware rudder pedals, using them will mean your knees are a bit higher under your desk than they would be when simply planted on the floor ( your knees will be about three inches higher), so keep that in mind if your knees are already pretty close to the underside of your computer desk, because it might mean you have to budget for another computer desk too, and possibly a different chair.

You are correct in assuming that pedals will give you much better control of choppers in a sim, as they free you from having to hold in some anti-torque on your joystick if using a twist stick for rudder axis (because as I'm sure you know, that can make subtle control more difficult, which is something you will probably want to address if you use some of the more sophisticated FS choppers such as the DodoSim Bell 206 JetRanger). Thus if you like flying choppers a lot, whilst not exactly 'essential' for flight simming, rudder pedals are nevertheless going to make flying choppers a far more satisfying experience.

Rudder pedals are also, if not quite a 'must have', then certainly desirable for flying gliders in a sim too, because as with when you fly gliders for real, in a flight sim you will be using the rudder pedals far more often than you do with either a powered light aircraft or an airliner. Because as you probably know with gliders, when you don't have any prop backwash on your tail surface to kick you round into a turn from a fairly small control surface deflection, you tend to have to instigate a turn with a very large rudder deflection to get the yaw going, then ease it off with the turn easablished, and that is way easier to do with a hardware add-on that is akin to a real aeroplane's rudder pedals than it will ever be with a twist joystick, so again that is a more satisfying and realistic simulation experience.

Similarly, rudder pedals make holding in some yaw on either a take off roll or a sideslipped approach much easier to accomplish than it is with a twist stick, not only because it's harder to work the ailerons and elevators on a joystick when you are twisting it too in order to control yaw, but also because the range of travel is bigger on rudder pedals so that makes fine inputs easier to make, this means that (as it makes controlling a chopper's tail rotor with subtelty more feasible, it also comes in handy for everything from a small prop plane to a big airliner, so if you have something like a Pitts S2 or a Sukhoi 26 aerobatic plane for your sims, then you will find they are absolutely essential for properly doing flick rolls and the like.

As far as yokes go, the Saitek one is okay, if a little 'plasticky' in feel, since it is of course made from ABS plastic. Despite the plastic construction, again it is more robust than you'd think, and if you get the throttles with it too (which is usually the case since they tend to be sold as a pair), then you are again in the same position as you are with hardware rudder pedals, in that it will allow you to make finer adjustments than a typical joystick built-in throttle will allow. Like most PC hardware yokes, it has a relatively subtle, but still 'feelable' centre detent, which most real aeroplane yokes don't have (although that is actually becoming more common on GA aeroplanes in real life these days). As with joysticks though, which usually have a centering spring detent, you can do stuff about that. It clamps in place pretty well. I've been pretty happy with the Saitek one, although as with most things, I daresay more expensive ones would maybe feel a bit more like a real control to the touch, but as I say, I quite like my Saitek one, and like the Saitek pedals, it is probably the most affordable one.

Again, a consideration with yokes and throttles for PC simming, is desktop footprint. Pretty much every PC flight sim yoke has a big box behind the actual yoke, and that can have a sizable impact on where you place your keyboard, so again, beyond other considerations of build quality and feel, also weigh up the overall size of any yoke and or throttle you are considering, as that too might mean changing your PC desk.

Other considerations...

Unlike with pedals, where they are always going to make things more aeroplane-like or chopper-like, a yoke will of course not always do that. As you know, all choppers, quite a few GA aeroplanes, all fighters and some bombers (such as the Avro Vulcan), and every Airbus (apart from the A300) have a stick controller. So weigh up how many times you fly craft with a stick as opposed to with a yoke and factor that into how much you want to spend on a yoke, and if you feel that you want to mix and match, then bear in mind that some yokes have their throttles built into the box, whereas the Saitek one has a seperate throttle unit, so it would for example, allow more flexibility if you perhaps wanted to use the throttle lever as a collective and your joystick as the cyclic.

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Alan - is the 45 degree max rotation to any one side on the normal Saitek that big of a deal?

 

Not to me personally. But then again, since I usually fly gliders, which all have a joystick, it's also never really bothered me that most PC joysticks don't have as much leverage deflection as the real thing does either. In reality, the only time I ever tend to give it maximum throw on a real glider's stick is when rolling out after a landing when trying to keep the wings up off the grass until it comes to a halt before it gently settles over onto a wingtip, because I don't like stressing the wings by having the aeroplane drag its wingtip on the ground whilst it is still moving. So most of the time it isn't an issue anyway.

 

Similarly, whilst it is true that when landing an aeroplane with a control wheel in real life, you do sometimes have the yoke turned a lot (i.e. over at 90 degrees) to ensure you get enough roll movement when the airflow is reduced over the ailerons, as with a typical PC joystick, I don't find it too unrealistic to have a similarly reduced movement with a yoke. If you've ever seen anyone landing a DC-3, you'll know that they're quite often turning that wheel over quite a lot when at Vref lol. But as I say, I'm really not that bothered about that not being the case in a sim, because whenever I fly a real aeroplane, I know you tend to make the control movements which 'feel right' at that moment for that particular aeroplane, so that ends up being what you adjust to with a PC yoke too, as you do with a stick.

 

The one control where I actually do want proper travel, is the rudder pedals, because that is something which you do have to 'dance about on' with a real aeroplane, and certainly in a glider, so it is nice to be able to do the same in a sim as I have to do with the real thing.

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I just purchased a set of the MFG Crosswind pedals and a VantEdge yoke.  The pedals are incredible and cost about $300 depending on where you live. I HIGHLY recommend them!

 

The Yoke on the other is nice, but has had some issues. First the upper buttons of the hat switch did not work so it had to be sent in. I get it back and now the yoke is slightly rolling to the right. I live quite far so shipping is a pain with about 14 days in between shipping times so I haven't use it much. I will say it is incredibly smooth and precise and I like it. The QC could be better for a $500 yoke though.

 

Thank you so much for replying about these two items. Much appreciated!

 

I've pretty much decided that I will get the Crosswinds, as every review (and post) I have seen on them has been very positive. 

 

I'm still undecided on what to yoke to get.  I also live far from GoFlight (on the opposite side of the continent), so quality control is VERY important to me.  My understanding is that the VantEdge is mechanically identical to the GF-Pro Yoke, and I haven't found anything else in the $500 price range as an alternative. And I've seen way too many negative posts about the Saitek and CH Products yokes.  I'm ok with spending a bit more for a yoke that I'll be happy with and that will last AND that I won't have to tinker with [i'm a librarian, not a mechanic!]

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Like all PC hardware rudder pedals, using them will mean your knees are a bit higher under your desk than they would be when simply planted on the floor ( your knees will be about three inches higher), so keep that in mind if your knees are already pretty close to the underside of your computer desk, because it might mean you have to budget for another computer desk too, and possibly a different chair.

 

You are correct in assuming that pedals will give you much better control of choppers in a sim, as they free you from having to hold in some anti-torque on your joystick if using a twist stick for rudder axis (because as I'm sure you know, that can make subtle control more difficult, which is something you will probably want to address if you use some of the more sophisticated FS choppers such as the DodoSim Bell 206 JetRanger). Thus if you like flying choppers a lot, whilst not exactly 'essential' for flight simming, rudder pedals are nevertheless going to make flying choppers a far more satisfying experience.As far as yokes go, the Saitek one is okay, if a little 'plasticky' in feel, since it is of course made from ABS plastic. Despite the plastic construction, again it is more robust than you'd think, and if you get the throttles with it too (which is usually the case since they tend to be sold as a pair), then you are again in the same position as you are with hardware rudder pedals, in that it will allow you to make finer adjustments than a typical joystick built-in throttle will allow. Like most PC hardware yokes, it has a relatively subtle, but still 'feelable' centre detent, which most real aeroplane yokes don't have (although that is actually becoming more common on GA aeroplanes in real life these days). As with joysticks though, which usually have a centering spring detent, you can do stuff about that. It clamps in place pretty well. I've been pretty happy with the Saitek one, although as with most things, I daresay more expensive ones would maybe feel a bit more like a real control to the touch, but as I say, I quite like my Saitek one, and like the Saitek pedals, it is probably the most affordable one.

Again, a consideration with yokes and throttles for PC simming, is desktop footprint. Pretty much every PC flight sim yoke has a big box behind the actual yoke, and that can have a sizable impact on where you place your keyboard, so again, beyond other considerations of build quality and feel, also weigh up the overall size of any yoke and or throttle you are considering, as that too might mean changing your PC desk.

 

Thank you for taking the time to compose such an informative post!  Right now I'm planning on getting the Crosswinds pedals, as they seem to be very well constructed, and I like how adjustable they are (including spring resistance).  I do have long legs, but my chair is adjustable, so I will just lower it a bit (and I can adjust the angle of the pedals with the Crosswinds, so this should work out fine).  I'll likely get the pedals first, as my Saitek X52 still works well enough until I make up my mind and/or can afford the price of a well made yoke. Plus I'll still be using my joystick for flying the choppers.

 

I am curious about the Logitech version of the Saitek yoke.  Do you (or anyone else) know if this is an improved version of the Saitek model, or did they just slap on a Logitech label?

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I am curious about the Logitech version of the Saitek yoke.  Do you (or anyone else) know if this is an improved version of the Saitek model, or did they just slap on a Logitech label?

 

The logitech and Saitek yoke are the same except for the name and packaging. They did not upgrade it in anyway from what I was told from Logitech.

 

The MFG Crosswind's are simply incredible. You won't regret your purchase. The composite material he uses doesn't flex. They are very smooth a precise, and very comfortable. I was torn about spending a bit more and I am very happy I did. Just keep in mind he makes them in cycles. I ordered mine in November but he didn't finish making them until the end of December. Also, in case you didn't know, he does make them in 2 colors now. A Slate Gray (which I bought) and the tan(ish) color of the original. 

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Personally, I'd stay far faar away from anything GoFlight, I had their throttle and yoke a little while back and for the price, they are terrible. The yoke is so notchy and GoFlight support thinks that it is normal, you shouldn't have to lube up a $800 yoke the day after you bought it.

 

I went back to a CH eclipse/Logitech-Saitek throttle and haven't had a problem.

 

I forgot where I saw it but I believe someone at CES announced a new yoke that looked pretty nice, wont be releasing until summer though. 

 

-Jon

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Personally, I'd stay far faar away from anything GoFlight, I had their throttle and yoke a little while back and for the price, they are terrible. The yoke is so notchy and GoFlight support thinks that it is normal, you shouldn't have to lube up a $800 yoke the day after you bought it.

 

I went back to a CH eclipse/Logitech-Saitek throttle and haven't had a problem.

 

I forgot where I saw it but I believe someone at CES announced a new yoke that looked pretty nice, wont be releasing until summer though. 

 

-Jon

I also had the notchy yoke but from what I found it its the grease they use for some reason. I put some aviation grade clear silicone grease and its buttery smooth now. There are a few other posts about it on AVSIM

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Yeah I've heard that helps, just annoying that you spend that much on a yoke and you gotta do that to get it to work the way it should. 

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Thanks so much guys for all the info on the yokes.  I do not want to spent $550 for a yoke, only to have to take it apart in order to get it working right. 

 

Does anyone have any other yoke recommendations? 

 

I really need a bit more info before I'm going to be able to decide on a yoke (Saitek, CH, GoFlight, or something else).  Perhaps I would be better off just getting a top-end joystick/throttle, since I spend nearly half my time flying helicopters.  Are the new Thrustmaster HOTAS any good?

 

I'm about ready to order the Crosswinds, but I'm just waiting to hear back from the company, as I had some questions/concerns about a couple of things.

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Thanks so much guys for all the info on the yokes.  I do not want to spent $550 for a yoke, only to have to take it apart in order to get it working right. 

 

Does anyone have any other yoke recommendations? 

 

I really need a bit more info before I'm going to be able to decide on a yoke (Saitek, CH, GoFlight, or something else).  Perhaps I would be better off just getting a top-end joystick/throttle, since I spend nearly half my time flying helicopters.  Are the new Thrustmaster HOTAS any good?

 

I'm about ready to order the Crosswinds, but I'm just waiting to hear back from the company, as I had some questions/concerns about a couple of things.

I was torn between the VRinsight yoke and the Goflight one. I bought the Goflight one during their Black Friday sale so it was about 450 after everything. I agree its sort of a pain, but its honestly 4 screws and thats it. Really simple. I would give the GoFlight yoke a 4/5 stars overall.

 

I have the Thrustmaster Warthog and its an amazing HOTAS. I recommend it fully.

 

And if you are looking for an inexpensive throttle setup, look at www.fsxthrottle.com  I just ordered their quattro and I am very impressed. He allows you to customize it so you only pay for what you want.  It has a lifetime warranty which is nice. The product itself is made out of MDF and wood. I was slightly concerned at first but after using it I am very impressed. It seems very durable and and I like the features that it has.

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Perhaps I would be better off just getting a top-end joystick/throttle, since I spend nearly half my time flying helicopters. Are the new Thrustmaster HOTAS any good?

 

This.  The TM Warthog is an excellent, solid stick and dual-throttle setup...heavy, precise, and sturdy.  It uses Hall Effect sensors in both the X-Y joystick axes and the throttle axes, so the problems of noisy, spiking pots are gone.

 

The unfortunate reality is that there is very little in the way of options between the cheap underwhelming plastic yokes (Saitek, CH) and the high-end, high-dollar ones (PFC, ACE, etc).  The Warthog HOTAS plus a set of all-metal PFC rudder pedals would fall into that ~$1000 total range, and give you an excellent, long-lasting setup that's actually more versatile than a yoke.

 

Regards

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On 2/23/2017 at 0:10 PM, w6kd said:

This.  The TM Warthog is an excellent, solid stick and dual-throttle setup...heavy, precise, and sturdy.  It uses Hall Effect sensors in both the X-Y joystick axes and the throttle axes, so the problems of noisy, spiking pots are gone.

The unfortunate reality is that there is very little in the way of options between the cheap underwhelming plastic yokes (Saitek, CH) and the high-end, high-dollar ones (PFC, ACE, etc).  The Warthog HOTAS plus a set of all-metal PFC rudder pedals would fall into that ~$1000 total range, and give you an excellent, long-lasting setup that's actually more versatile than a yoke.

Thanks Bob, for your feedback on this!  I just need to figure out which is the best way to move forward.  Initially I had my heart set on getting a yoke, but finding a really good on in the $500-600 range is really proving to be difficult, as everyone I've considered seems to have some shortcomings.

After looking more at the TM Warthog, I do have a couple of concerns.  The first is that it's bring spring will make it hard for me to use.  The other is related: I place my Saitek in my lap, which is the way that I have the most control. But the TM doesn't look like it would be at all comfortable in my lap.  Also, do you know if the Warthog the newest/best HOTAS from TM?

I'm going to first get some good pedals, mostly likely the Crosswinds.  I'm just waiting to hear back from the manufacturer, about a couple of questions that I have.

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The Crosswind pedals look like they are really good and at a reasonable price.  Yoko the Yoke is apparently fantastic.  Other than that, there is a guy selling a very high end Yoke in the Bargain Hunters forum.  I think he is in Florida and you may be able to get a good deal.

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1 hour ago, Arwen said:

After looking more at the TM Warthog, I do have a couple of concerns.  The first is that it's bring spring will make it hard for me to use.  The other is related: I place my Saitek in my lap, which is the way that I have the most control. But the TM doesn't look like it would be at all comfortable in my lap.  Also, do you know if the Warthog the newest/best HOTAS from TM?

Sitting in your lap is probably not an option with the Warthog...it comes with a flat plate mount on the bottom.  I use it with a shelf that I made that goes across in front of me between me and the front edge of the table the monitor is on.

The Warthog's spring isn't an issue for me when flying flight sim planes--it would probably be a bit too stiff for playing shoot-em-up games that require a lot of fast action.  There is another, much cheaper Thrustmaster stick, the T-16000M, which is plastic, fairly light, but still uses Hall sensors in the X-Y axes.  I see they are now making a new companion throttle unit for it, but I have not handled one of those.  The T-16000M is also ambidextrous, with reversible contour pads to switch the grip between left and right, which makes it a uniquely good choice when a left-handed stick is needed, e.g. for a left-seat Scarebus simulation.  I keep several of the T-16000Ms around for gaming and for the aforementioned left-hand stick.  The T-16000M also incorporates a twist-grip axis that is intended for rudder (it's awful to use a twist grip for this IMHO, but the axis is very handy for nosewheel steering).

Regards

 

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6 hours ago, w6kd said:

Sitting in your lap is probably not an option with the Warthog...it comes with a flat plate mount on the bottom.  I use it with a shelf that I made that goes across in front of me between me and the front edge of the table the monitor is on.

The Warthog's spring isn't an issue for me when flying flight sim planes--it would probably be a bit too stiff for playing shoot-em-up games that require a lot of fast action.  There is another, much cheaper Thrustmaster stick, the T-16000M, which is plastic, fairly light, but still uses Hall sensors in the X-Y axes.  I see they are now making a new companion throttle unit for it, but I have not handled one of those.  The T-16000M is also ambidextrous, with reversible contour pads to switch the grip between left and right, which makes it a uniquely good choice when a left-handed stick is needed, e.g. for a left-seat Scarebus simulation.  I keep several of the T-16000Ms around for gaming and for the aforementioned left-hand stick.  The T-16000M also incorporates a twist-grip axis that is intended for rudder (it's awful to use a twist grip for this IMHO, but the axis is very handy for nosewheel steering).

Thanks Bob for your answers!  If I end up replacing my Saitek X52, I think that I would much rather get a TM Warthog HOTAS, than something lighter and less durable.  Everything that I have heard about the Warthog, is that it is the best HOTAS to get. I'm ready to spend a bit more to get what will work the best for me, and I'm concerned that anything else (as far as joysticks) wouldn't be much of an upgrade from my X52 (which is still working fine, so I'll still be able to use it for the more arcade games).

With the Warthog, I'm guessing that I will have to find a way to clamp it down to my desk in order to use it.  The problem is that trying to use my X52 on my desk is not comfortable, which throws my flying controls way off (which is why I fly with my X52 down in my lap).

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Arwen, it's worth thinking ahead a little. If you bought a yoke, you'd have to mount it to your desktop so would it really be a lot different to having your joystick there? Also, once you get the pedals, having the joystick on your lap will be a much less practical proposition. If you're paying a premium for a high precision controller, it seems a waste to have it sitting on a soft surface.

One thing I would say is don't buy a budget yoke. Although there are many who seem happy with them, they are too much of a compromise and take some time to adapt to their limitations. I briefly had a Saitek Cessna Pro Flight yoke (one of the better budget models) but sent it back. Quite well-made but badly designed. I now use a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 - best joystick I've owned and well worth the effort of trying to find a good one.

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11 hours ago, vortex681 said:

Arwen, it's worth thinking ahead a little. If you bought a yoke, you'd have to mount it to your desktop so would it really be a lot different to having your joystick there? Also, once you get the pedals, having the joystick on your lap will be a much less practical proposition. If you're paying a premium for a high precision controller, it seems a waste to have it sitting on a soft surface.

One thing I would say is don't buy a budget yoke. Although there are many who seem happy with them, they are too much of a compromise and take some time to adapt to their limitations. I briefly had a Saitek Cessna Pro Flight yoke (one of the better budget models) but sent it back. Quite well-made but badly designed. I now use a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 - best joystick I've owned and well worth the effort of trying to find a good one.

First of all, thanks for replying.  I probably don't say this enough, but I really appreciate all the help and advice that I've received in this (and other) thread. 

As far as clamping both to my desktop, there are some differences.  The main one is that you control a yoke mainly by moving your arms, while you control a joystick mainly by rotating and twisting your wrist. And the muscles in arms are much larger than the muscles in wrists. Also, you have to reach up a bit higher with a joystick. I've tried to fly with my Saitek on my desk and it just doesn't work well for me. 

But I may have found a solution. the only problem is that it is a bit pricey (in addition to the cost of a TM Warthog HOTAS), but this looks to be exactly what I need:

https://www.monstertech.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Monster_Tech_HOTAS_Table_Mount_Warthog_1.jpg

MonsterTech HOTAS Table Mounts

Thanks for the warning/advice, but I have already decided against getting a cheap yoke (or cheap pedals). I'd rather wait until I can afford to buy higher end gear, than to rush out and purchase something that I am not going to be happy with.

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12 hours ago, Arwen said:

But I may have found a solution. the only problem is that it is a bit pricey (in addition to the cost of a TM Warthog HOTAS), but this looks to be exactly what I need:

https://www.monstertech.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Monster_Tech_HOTAS_Table_Mount_Warthog_1.jpg

MonsterTech HOTAS Table Mounts

Impressive engineering! Also worth looking at this:

http://wheelstandpro.com/products/wheel-stand-pro-for-thrustmaster-hotas-warthog--and-saitek-x-55-x52pro---deluxe-v2-

I think a few people in the forums use these, if I recall correctly.

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