Hi,I would like to start a thread about the subject "flying by the numbers". I'm thinking of the "Airspeed/RotationPerMinute/Manifold Pressure" that is recommended under the different standard maeuvres like.... -Climb-Cruise-Level-Cruise-Descend-Approach-Level-Approach-Descend-Approach-Glide SlopeCharles Wood has, as a lot of you probably know, made a fantastic website about navigation: http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/index.htmHe recommends the following numbers for the Cessna 182 training aircraft which can be downloaded from his website:Climb: 2700 RPM/90 ktsCruise-Level: 2500 RPM/110 ktsCruise-Descend: 2170 RPM/110 ktsApproach-Level: 2130 RPM/75 ktsApproach-Desc: 1660 RPM/75 ktsApproach-GS: 1800 RPM/75 ktsCharles Wood is also the founder of DC3-Airways (http://www.dc3airways.com/). For their DC3 he recommends these numbers:Take-off: 2700 RPM/48 in. MPClimb: 2350 RPM/36 in. MPCruise: 2050 RPM/30 in. MPDescend: 2050 RPM/20 in. MPHow do I work out these numbers which are so essential to know when I fly an aircraft? Can anybody comment on this or maybe give some hints (or a link) which can throw light on the subject "Flying by the numbers" ? As an example it should be rather essential to know the "numbers" of the aircraft you are flying if you want to make a so called "stabilized approach". Best RegardsLars

Here's the basic numbers for the Cessna 172 and the baron 58:http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimul...c172_basics.asphttp://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimul...c172_basics.aspAnd look at this link:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search...especially the reply by a guy who knows the theory in a book called "Positive Flying", by Richard Taylor and William Guinther.The above was just a pair of links to tell you some more of the subject I want to "talk" about. Every contribution is wellcome..;-)BRLars

Greetings Lars,<You cannot. They must be extracted from the real operations manual.In theory the flight dynamics author for each project should obtain all the relevant real world documentation and only then produce the MSFS flight dynamics to match so that when you make the real world inputs in MSFS they deliver the real performance envelope in MSFS.Very few project teams actually obtain the relevant documentation, since it is either too expensive or in many cases now unobtainable. Consequently in most cases the flight dynamics you can purchase or download are just imaginary or generic. It follows that even if you purchase the real manuals, or ask in a forum for the data from those manuals, and subsequently make the correct inputs, the wrong performance will nevertheless result and the aircraft may crash.If the project was based on the real operations manuals then the product will contain all the extracts from the real world documentation that you need since it would make no sense to deny you that information. If on the other hand the project team never had access to the real engine / aircraft / airline documentation then there is no way the producer can tell you what the correct input values are because they never knew and they could never link them to the correct outputs within MSFS.Across the web there are now getting on for three dozen FS9 compatible freeware aircraft, (about one per month since release), which have been produced from the real world manuals and a smaller number of payware aircraft produced to the same standard. The location with the largest number of such files is probably Tom Gibson's website;www.calclassic.comAlmost all of the freeware aircraft you can download from there were produced from the real world documentation and consequently come with all the handling notes you may need to conduct flight simulation. They tell you what inputs to make and what change of condition require you to make them. Target by target. They explain whether the target is an IAS, a VSI or a pitch and the inputs you must make to comply with ATC regulations and to maximise profit or range.The tutorials section there offers an extensive Propliner Tutorial which expands on why you must do many of the things that the step by step handling notes tell you to do. Although I wrote the tutorial with propliner fans in mind it applies well enough to any piston engined aircraft, (and many turboprops), with unswept wings. The Tutorial begins with elementary considerations and moves on to discuss point to point time minimising operating strategies and profit maximising strategies for 4D flight planning, from ultra short range to extended range operations, taking into account ATC regulations and headwind vector. Don't try to understand everything at once. Take it one step at a time. If you already understand how to conduct real time 4D navigation in accordance with ATC regulations skip parts 2 and 3.Detailed handling issues relating to specific aircraft are also discussed in Tom Gibson's classic propliners forum;http://www.simufly.com/cgi-local/YaBB/YaBB...d=Classic_PropsIn recent years it has been the forum within which (non jet) MSFS aircraft with realistic flight dynamics are most discussed and reading back through that forum will be the best way to identify other freeware and payware products that may have the handling notes required to use MSFS as a flight simulator. Always bear in mind that some the numbers you are asking about vary with current weight and the default values supplied must be re-calculated in accordance with the advice you will find within the resources above. Then bear in mind that whilst the manufacturers of engines and airframes publish recommendations for usage at the time of manufacture one airline / air force / fixed base operator and another will publish different manuals with different operating instructions according to time and place as the cost of fuel and labour vary over the decades.The optimum way to operate a Twin Wasp engine in 1939 may not be the optimum way to operate a Twin Wasp engine in 2006. The files at calclassic.com relate to original usage, usually by one particular operator, at one particular time, in pursuit of maximum profit, not modern museum usage in pursuit of minimum cost. Consequently the questions you raise have very complicated answers. Most of what you need to know has however already been answered within the Propliner Tutorial or within the forum above. Finally large piston engined aircraft with unswept wings do not normally attempt stable approaches. They usually fly unrushed unstable approaches with multiple configuration changes as mandated within their step by step handling notes, targeting Vref as late as 50 feet agl (QFE).Vintage aircraft like the DC-3 have very fragile structures. Their flaps are liable to suffer structural failure if extended beyond 1/4 flap when the current drag upon them exceeds 98 KIAS and in most cases it is not appropriate to reduce below 98 KIAS before commencing an approach in aircraft of that size.The techniques appropriate to jet aircraft with swept wings do not generically apply to piston engined aircraft with unswept wings. Further detailed guidance will be found within the freeware resources above.If the freeware resources above do not answer all of your questions you may need to purchase a relevant (second hand) textbook aimed at trainee professional pilots and the real manuals in question. They will answer all your questions, but of course they won

Interesting thread and FSAviator, thanks for taking the time to put together such a detailed and well-written response.RegardsBlairCYOW

Thank you PCAVIATOR for a very comprehensive and thorough answer. I understand that the freeware aircrafts on Tom Gibson's website are serious products based on the documentation of the real aircrafts. Can you mention som of the payware aircrafts which are made on the serious basis? (I'm mostly interested in propellar aircrafts).Thank's a lot--Lars

i would say just fly it... airspeed just about so, make sure you don't drop like a brick. engine not too hot, not too cold, but don't look--listen to it. needles in the green, stable controls...POH numbers are great, but you never weigh exactly 2400 pounds, the wind is never 10 knots from dead ahead, and the atmosphere is standard only in textbooksmake your own numbers, within safety margins, and enjoy the view above the instrument panel :)ps. a rental operator will remind you before every flight, not above 2300. great, but the crate is fine up to 2700 and you're renting wet, paying for hobbs, no? there go the numbers... :-)

Hi, everyone.I also want to thank the

Hi Lars,When I started learning flying and my CFI showed me the numbers of a C172, I fixated on them to the point of not looking outside the aircraft and spending many valuable seconds tweaking the RPM to exactly what the book said that number should be- likewise the airspeed, etc. Although this is no way to fly, in the comfort of having a CFI along to watch the things that matter I found it very valuable. Then after a while you start to get a feel for the plane (at least the real one- which is very consistent and predictable), and you don't fixate on this anymore. A bit like when you started driving and fixated on the speedometer to get exactly 30mph, then later when you got more familiar you only glance at it occasionally. In the private pilot oral test prior to the checkride I was asked about these numbers again, and then made to demonstrate that I could attain and maintain them for the various phases of flight. Several of the more critical ones were Vx and Vy, being the best angle and rate of climb respectively, and both having relevance to different take-off situations. Also in slow flight maneuvers at close to Vs0, one has to be very aware of where Vs0 is , as you're right at one end of the flight envelope and the stall warning is continually sounding.This is a good topic and thread. In IFR flight the numbers are also important in achieving stabilized flight, especially in the approach phase.Bruce.

Hi PCAviator!>Across the web there are now getting on for three dozen FS9>compatible freeware aircraft, (about one per month since>release), which have been produced from the real world manuals>and a smaller number of payware aircraft produced to the same>standard. Could you please give some examples of payware aircraft which are produced from the real world manuals?Kind Regards--Lars

Thank you to all for your kind comments.Lars, I prefer not to recommend any particular payware aircraft. If any payware aircraft package includes the handling notes you require it is very likely this will be advertised on the producer's and/or retailer's web page. It is probably best to do your own research in this way if you intend to part with money. Whilst there is no absolute guarantee it is unlikely that any reputable payware producer will provide detailed handling notes containing data that do not match the flight dynamics in the product. This does however occur from time to time within freeware releases. Resolution of the stall horn bug in FS9 deserves a detailed reply, but nothing in what follows relates to the original topic of this thread.Microsoft deliberately removed numerous variables from the declared variable lists of the various invariant FS9 flight models (FM) reducing the parameters that can be poked into the FM from within the aircraft and engine specific flight dynamics (FD) compared to earlier versions of MSFS. Once the variables are not available in the relevant FM messing with the FD is usually pointless, though the possibilities are complex. No doubt the intention was that control of the relevant parameters within FS9 should be provided more simply by gauge authors instead. If the gauges are written in xml this allows simple post release variation using any text editor. However as far as restoring correct function of stall horns within FS9 is concerned, as far as I can tell, no one has bothered and that evidently includes Microsoft. The meta code for a stall horn gauge is simply;IF AoA > n THENPLAY "stallhorn.wav"ELSEPLAY "silence.wav"ENDIFNeither IAS nor CAS is involved. No bitmap is required. Any wavs called must be where the gauge expects them to be.Perhaps one of the resident experts in the aircraft design forum may be willing publish the correctly formatted xml code there or upload the gauge. It can then be added to any panel.cfg as required, after editing the value of n and the identity of the wav files with nothing more complex than Windows Notepad. An aircraft with no stall horn might for instance call buffet.wav instead.Designers of cockpit environments for aerobatic aircraft might like to arrange for buffet.wav to be called 'early' followed later by horn.wav to help counter missing sensory feedback of when to relax the back pressure to maximise pitch rate, and so on.There are two wrinkles.1) The associated sound.cfg must have sound =With no file specified for the event to exclude conflicts.2) The aerodynamic frame of reference in FS9 is fuselage datum AoA not aerofoil datum AoA.So if an aircraft has a horn that sounds at +12 dAoA in real life and aerofoils whose mean incidence is +3 the correct value of n is 9 within FS9.>There is a solution to this problem involving complicated hex editing of the air file, but it is not worth pursuing given the ease of trigger value variation, and multiple wav call possibilities, (e.g. rising buffet noise), via the xml gauge solution above. I am aware that making xml gauges play wav files, (and turning them off again), is more complex than the meta code above suggests, which is why I have no intention of attempting a fully coded solution. A gauge solution whose trigger value(s) can be text edited is nevertheless the optimum fix for this annoying FS9 bug and may also open doors to better consumer appreciation of appropriate moderation of joystick back pressure when pulling G.

Hello, FSAviator and everyone.The XML Stall horn sound suggestion is very good. It

<>This is easy to fix if you have the POH.Flight dynamics are usually developed and beta tested using an ASI calibrated in CAS because that makes life easier. You probably realise that if the only reference source is the Boys Bumper book of Famous Aircraft the data therein will usually be Corrected Air Speed (CAS) or True Air Speed (TAS).Developers who have access to the real operating manual then consult the pitot position error table and as a final act recalibrate (uncorrect) the ASI to display IAS.Look at the default C182 aircraft.cfg[airspeed_indicators]airspeed_indicator.0 = 1.3, -24.0Microsoft consulted the pitot error table for the real C182 and concluded that the real ASI under reads by 24 knots at Vs0 but is correct at 1.3 * Vs0. You must discover and encode the origin and slope of the ASI correction card in the aircraft or the table within the POH.Microsoft failed to uncorrect the ASI in their simulation of the C172. If you have the POH or ASI correction card for the precise version you wish to simulate you can add the data to uncorrect the ASI anywhere in the aircraft.cfg<>I am sure you understand this, but since we are posting in a general forum I will explain that the problem that arises in relation to most FS9 consumers is that they may believe that a C182 really can fly 24 knots slower than reality just because the ASI has been uncorrected to display the huge real life error.This section of the aircraft.cfg which Microsoft claim is KTAS actually records KCAS for stall data with Microsoft assuming ISA sea level condition.[Reference Speeds]flaps_up_stall_speed = 54.0 //Knots True (KTAS)full_flaps_stall_speed = 49.0 //Knots True (KTAS)cruise_speed = 120.0 //Knots True (KTAS)max_indicated_speed = 175 //Red line (KIAS)So when the ASI in the C182 reads 25 KIAS the aircraft has a drag of 49 KCAS and in the International Standard Atmosphere at sea level it also has a velocity of 49 KTAS. Consequently the potential impact damage is proportional to 49 squared, not 25 squared, as is the required braking distance following a touchdown at Vs0. Energy state (momentum) always being equal to mv^2, or for an aircraft we can say current mass * TAS^2.Energy state depends on TAS never IAS and control authority depends on CAS never IAS.Some FS developers conclude that their target consumer will find this too confusing and so they deliberately leave the ASI displaying CAS, but I understand why you find this inappropriate. <>There is nothing missing from any of the flight models except variation of stall angle for manual slats. Handley Page auto slats as used by de Havilland in the Tiger Moth or by Saulnier in the Moranes are fully supported.There are no significant low speed flight problems in the FMs inside FS9. The problem if present is the quality of the aircraft specific flight dynamics (FD) whoever developed them, but bear in mind that you may not be the developer

Good Topic.This is one of the things I look for in a fSim aircraft. Many of the payware vendors don't give this. I wish they would.It is absolute requirement for IFR flying IMO.I have the On Top IFR Proicieny sim. They have provided that in their manual for the following aircraft.172P Skyhawk182R Skylane182R skylane rGPiper PA-28-161 Warrior IIPiperr PA-28R-201 Arrow IVMooney MSELancairColumbia 300Beech V-35B BonanazaBeech BE58 BaronThey provide in a spreadsheet form with a diagram of the attitude indicator and VSI1. Attitude (-Level, -3deg, +4deg etc..)2. MP 3. Gear (up,Dn, NA)4. RPM5. Kts6. VSIThey do that fora. Crusieb. Cruise descentc. Cruise climbd. Approach levele. Precision descent (ILS approach)f. Non.Precision descent (VOR,GPS,ADF approach).Yes..it changes by wt etc... but they are very small....and yes..you can have these numbers for an aircraft in general(average) for a specific type of airplane and for maximum wt. and you start with this and you make very small change to accomodate wt diff. Less than half bar width diff in attitude?I wish I could scan it and post it here..but that would violate the copyright rules.If we have these numbers for the aircraft (GA) that we fly... we can fly with precision those approaches.In real life IFR flying..you need to know these numbers for the airplane you fly..it makes life so much easier. I don't understand how anyone can fly IFR without these numbers.Infact.. I usually don't fly the Payware aircrafts for which I can't figure these numbers.. Yes. I fly them for eye candy for a while and then I drop them. That rule does not apply for PMDG 747 or the ATR etc... I am talking GA type aircrafts. the airliner type aircrafts do give similar info in their manual..I think.MannyHere is an example for Beach Bonanza: Add "H" to the ttp://, then cut paste in your browser.ttp://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beechcraftbonanzaa354hs.jpg

or a Cessna 172P SkyhawkType: Attitude MP Gear RPM KTS VSI1. Cruise: Level na na 2400 100 02. Cruise descent: -2deg na na 2100 110 -5003. Cruise climb : +4deg na na 2400 90 +5004. Approach level: +1deg na na 2100 90 05. Precision descent (ILS): -1deg na na 1500 90 -5006. non-prec descent (VOR): -4deg na na 1300 90 -1000

>>How do I work out these numbers which are so essential to know when I >>fly an aircraft?Strictly speaking you need to Pilots Operatingg Handbook/FLight Manual. However, there are two other ways. One is to look at the ASI and the other to apply some calculated guesswork.ASI: Bottom of the white arc = Vs0Bottom of the Green arc = Vs1Blue Line (twin) = Vyse (best climb single engine)Top of White Arc = Vfe (max full and/or partial flap flap extended speed)Top of Green Arc = Max Cruise Speed (Vno)Top of Yellow Arc/Red Line = Never exceed speed (Vne).Calculated Guesswork: To fill in the gaps, for most light GA types you can pretty much work out the approximate speeds from the stall speed in landing config (flaps and gear down, power off).Final = Vs0 * 1.3Base = Final + 5kts.Vx = FinalVy = Vs0 * 1.6Best Glide = VyNormal Cruise = Max Cruise - 25ktsEconomy Cruise = Normal Cruise - 5kts