the sim - game dichotomy

[vortex681 806]

9 hours ago, A32xx said:

In FSX, once you've learned how to fly the plane and how to navigate with the various instruments, there's nothing else to do or achieve.

So, in the real world, once I learn to fly the plane and navigate, there's nothing else to do? That's just the start! How about converting to a much more complex aircraft with realistic systems? Then flying to interesting places - even round the world in real-time weather (with all the challenges that presents)? Learning to fly tricky, complicated instrument approaches? Coping with system failures and emergencies? I could go on but the bottom line is that a good sim should be capable and accurate enough to only be limited by your imagination and skill.

8 hours ago, A32xx said:

None of the current PC flight sims have any of the same missions, rewards, level-ups etc. as the mobile flight sims do.

And that's precisely why they don't appeal as much to most flight sim enthusiasts. Well-written missions can be fun to get you started but generally I don't want my challenges pre-packaged and if I want rewards and level-ups I'll play something fairly mindless on my iPhone. The main reason I got rid of my 22" monitor was that it wasn't capable of showing the level of detail I wanted so where does that leave the tiny screens on mobile devices? Most people who buy flight sims want to try and re-create the flying experience as closely as possible whilst still sitting on the ground using fairly realistic flying controls to achieve this. They don't want to grab the sides of the cockpit (screen) and twist and tilt it to control the aircraft. Nor do they want to use tiny sliders or thumb sticks at the edge of the screen. How does that even remotely simulate what's required to fly a real aircraft? I know that even the best PC-based flight sims don't really come close to replicating the sensation of flying (I was a professional pilot before I retired) but they are infinitely better than trying to do it on a mobile device. The PC as a gaming platform has never been better, and particularly so for flight sims.

 

[sightseer 895]

I tried playing Xplane on a mobile device one time and it was downright weird using my fingertip to lower the flaps.  I felt disconnected from my 'flight'.

If a mobile device could drive a VR device complete with the hand controls then I could see it and that may happen soon for all I know.  but for now a desktop seems best for flight simming.

 

[FlyBaby 659]

19 hours ago, flyforever said:

As to mobile devices, some games or sim lend themselves better to mobile devices. Others,however, like flight sims, need to feel and look more and more like the real thing. I don't know about you, but my eyes can barely read the instruments on a 30" screen.

 

I gave up on 30" screens years ago. I switched  to a 60" screen and I am now considering an 80" to more easily read the glass panel detail in VC.

[A32xx 129]

14 hours ago, vortex681 said:

I could go on but the bottom line is that a good sim should be capable and accurate enough to only be limited by your imagination and skill.

Let's assume that the youth of today (the target market for a new flight sim on Steam) don't have any imagination or skill, based on the number of 'serious' flight sims in the current console gaming top ten, i.e. the Christmas must-have games this year. Take a look for yourself and you'll see, none of them could care less about 'serious' flight sims, they're just not interested. In order for DTG to get them interested, some of the current standard gaming features will have to be included in FSW whether 'serious' simmers like it or not. Evolution is better than revolution for that reason, but the time for evolution passed when Microsoft closed Aces Studio 10 years ago. 'Serious' flight simulation has been stuck in that time-capsule ever since, while other sims have evolved and branched out onto consoles and mobiles, blurring the lines between 'game' and 'simulation' in the process. 'Serious' flight simulation has a lot of catching up to do, and I really hope it starts with FSW.

[vortex681 806]

10 hours ago, A32xx said:

Serious' flight simulation has a lot of catching up to do

Why? It seems to be doing fine so far without pandering to those with no skills and a lack of imagination. Is the youth of today really the target market for FSW? I would say that it's much more likely to be the more mature gamer who has a real interest in aviation. I don't think that most teenagers would have the required attention span or commitment (or finances, for that matter) to get into a serious flight sim - there'll always be exceptions, of course. I really hope that DTG stick to their guns with FSW and produce a serious flight sim to compete with the others already in the market (ignoring mobile apps, hopefully).

[A32xx 129]

9 hours ago, vortex681 said:

Why? It seems to be doing fine so far without pandering to those with no skills and a lack of imagination. Is the youth of today really the target market for FSW? I would say that it's much more likely to be the more mature gamer who has a real interest in aviation. I don't think that most teenagers would have the required attention span or commitment (or finances, for that matter) to get into a serious flight sim - there'll always be exceptions, of course. I really hope that DTG stick to their guns with FSW and produce a serious flight sim to compete with the others already in the market (ignoring mobile apps, hopefully).

In comparison to Flight Sim development for other platforms, PC Flight Sim development has virtually stagnated over the last ten years with only a handful of new titles, none of which can claim to be an outright replacement for FSX, as ancient as it is.

The youth of today are the under-30's, and they are definitely the target market for FSW, why else would FSW be available on Steam? Finance is not a barrier to this age group, even the younger end demand (and usually get through pester power) a new $50-$70 game title three or four times a year. They'll also happily crowdfund an Indie game or Expansion Pack when the main developers won't invest in it themselves. It's where the big money is in gaming today.

Given that this thread is a discussion of the game features already present in FSW, I think DTG intend to stick to their gaming guns and produce a PC-based Flight Sim which improves the features which 'serious' simmers demand and appeals to the youth of today who are already playing flight sims on other platforms.

Let's not underestimate the growing market which those flight sims on other platforms have, when compared to the dwindling PC flight sim market. I'm sorry to point this out, but AVSIM forum even has an Obituary section. Most of the current PC flight simmers are pensioners who've already invested heavily in their existing flight sims over the past decade(s), and who just don't want to part with more cash. And they quite rightly know what they like and like what they already know.

If DTG was your business and your future livelihood, which market would YOU be aiming at?

[vortex681 806]

7 hours ago, A32xx said:

The youth of today are the under-30's, and they are definitely the target market for FSW, why else would FSW be available on Steam?

Because it's the most efficient way of distributing and updating the software. X-Plane is also available on Steam for exactly this reason and they don't seem to be specifically targetting the youth market.

7 hours ago, A32xx said:

Most of the current PC flight simmers are pensioners who've already invested heavily in their existing flight sims over the past decade(s), and who just don't want to part with more cash.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Where's your evidence for this?

[A32xx 129]

32 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

Because it's the most efficient way of distributing and updating the software. X-Plane is also available on Steam for exactly this reason and they don't seem to be specifically targetting the youth market.

That's true, LR haven't introduced any 'game' type features. But DTG have.

32 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Where's your evidence for this?

All over the Avsim.com and Flightsim.com forums every time a new sim has been launched during the last 13 years. The common statement is that "I've spent too much on FS2004/FSX add-ons over the years to start all over again." It's a valid argument, too.

[vortex681 806]

13 minutes ago, A32xx said:

That's true, LR haven't introduced any 'game' type features. But DTG have.

Personally, it doesn't make any difference to me whether you call FSW a game or a sim. What do you consider to be game features in FSW that are not in other sims?

13 minutes ago, A32xx said:

All over the Avsim.com and Flightsim.com forums every time a new sim has been launched during the last 13 years. The common statement is that "I've spent too much on FS2004/FSX add-ons over the years to start all over again." It's a valid argument, too.

But where's your actual evidence as opposed to assumption (as very few people post their age, even in their profiles)? How do you know for sure that most of them are pensioners other than just by guessing? Anyone under 30 could just as easily have been flight simming for 10 years or more and have exactly the same sentiment about spending too much. It's impossible to accurately work out the demographic here as members don't need to supply that data.

[A32xx 129]

1 hour ago, vortex681 said:

Personally, it doesn't make any difference to me whether you call FSW a game or a sim. What do you consider to be game features in FSW that are not in other sims?

The perceived 'game' features don't bother me either, but many other people consider the requirement to land at a different airport to be a game feature, along with the on-screen pop-up showing that the flight has been added to your log when you do land at a different airport. Some object to the illuminated waypoints in the missions, some object to the missions themselves. For others, it's simply the fact that FSW is connected to Steam that's too game-like.

1 hour ago, vortex681 said:

But where's your actual evidence as opposed to assumption (as very few people post their age, even in their profiles)? How do you know for sure that most of them are pensioners other than just by guessing? Anyone under 30 could just as easily have been flight simming for 10 years or more and have exactly the same sentiment about spending too much. It's impossible to accurately work out the demographic here as members don't need to supply that data.

Some guys will put put 'retired' in their signatures or profiles, especially if they're ex-servicemen, most have openly said they're on a fixed income or pension in their previous posts. I've been a member of Avsim and Flightsim since 2005, and was a visitor to both for a year or so before that. In that time I've got know a lot of good people here, and I can assure you that most (but by no means all!) of those who are still regularly active and contributing to these forums are retired.

[jcomm 5,939]

Well,

I'm in simming since 1987... 

I'm not retired :-)  ( will take a long time to... thx to the growing age of retirement around here )

I've been a private pilot for more than 36 years.

I've spent some good money, not in FSX and derivates or even X-Plane where I actually spent a lot less than in:

Aerowinx PS1 and PSX, ELITE since version 7, DCS World and recently IL-2 Battle of ... series....

I consider every PC-based flight simulator, when not used within the strict requirements of flight trainning, as games - what else are these for us ?

I sometimes feel ridiculous when I see myself playing this games, specially in their air combat facet, occupying a worth of my spare time at home :-/  but I get huge enjoyment out of it...

I'm a bit tired of playing complex aircraft, pretending I am an Airbus or Boeing crew... There was a time for that... I look a lot more for softer approaches, but I require the best possible flight and systems as well as weather modelling...

I am using this FSW flight simulation game with great pleasure, specially the Missions! I even find it interesting from a pure didactic pov - should I have someone, specially youngster, approaching me and asking what flight simulator should be the best choice to initiate his experience in the world of Civil  Aviation, I wouldn't hesitate suggesting FSW, more than any of the other available platforms...  Should she / he get really interested in learning serious IFR, I might invite to use my ELITE IFR setup....

So... time to play my game after dinner, before going to bed... FSW it is for now :-)

[carbonbasedlifeform 179]

19 minutes ago, jcomm said:

I sometimes feel ridiculous when I see myself playing this games, specially in their air combat facet, occupying a worth of my spare time at home :-/  but I get huge enjoyment out of it...

And at least you have the excuse of being an actual pilot!

I think a good test is the wife test (or friends or whomever). If she sees you hunched in front of the computer, she doesn't care that you're flying a PMDG 737. You're playing a game. 

[jcomm 5,939]

16 minutes ago, carbonbasedlifeform said:

And at least you have the excuse of being an actual pilot!

I think a good test is the wife test (or friends or whomever). If she sees you hunched in front of the computer, she doesn't care that you're flying a PMDG 737. You're playing a game. 

Precisely!  Specially if I'm wearing that weird artifact in my headphones, and doing strange things with my head...

[vortex681 806]

1 hour ago, A32xx said:

... but many other people consider the requirement to land at a different airport to be a game feature, along with the on-screen pop-up showing that the flight has been added to your log when you do land at a different airport. Some object to the illuminated waypoints in the missions, some object to the missions themselves. For others, it's simply the fact that FSW is connected to Steam that's too game-like.

There is no requirement to land at another airfield. If you don't enter a destination, it just defaults to your take-off airfield. As far as missions go, FSX has similar mission features. As for Steam, I don't imagine that the 940,000+ users of FSX Steam Edition consider it's any more or less of a game than the boxed edition. Although I have the Gold boxed edition of FSX, I use the Steam edition because it has fewer bugs and was much more convenient when I built a new system - easier to install and no problems trying to register it. The fact that Steam is essentially a gaming platform was irrelevant to me.

1 hour ago, A32xx said:

Some guys will put put 'retired' in their signatures or profiles, especially if they're ex-servicemen, most have openly said they're on a fixed income or pension in their previous posts. I've been a member of Avsim and Flightsim since 2005, and was a visitor to both for a year or so before that. In that time I've got know a lot of good people here, and I can assure you that most (but by no means all!) of those who are still regularly active and contributing to these forums are retired.

But you still haven't produced any evidence (as in facts, proof) for this! Many may be retired, but most? "Most have openly said they're on a fixed income or pension" - some, maybe, but certainly not most! Many of the members here seem to be able to buy hardware that's certainly unlikely to be affordable on the average fixed, retirement income - just look around the hardware forums. I can see that we're not going to agree on this.

I still don't agree that the youth audience is the target market for FSW. I think that DTG knows what constitutes the current market for flight sims and would be foolish not to be aiming at that. By introducing more mobile game-type features there's a good chance they'll put off the very customers who are most likely to buy their product.

[ca_metal 2,025]

2 hours ago, vortex681 said:

But where's your actual evidence as opposed to assumption (as very few people post their age, even in their profiles)? How do you know for sure that most of them are pensioners other than just by guessing? Anyone under 30 could just as easily have been flight simming for 10 years or more and have exactly the same sentiment about spending too much. It's impossible to accurately work out the demographic here as members don't need to supply that data. 

I'm 29 and I have been simming for almost 20 years. Ok, I wasn't a great simmer at first, but my first attempts of flight were on FS 5.1, a long time ago.

I agree with you when you say sometimes people here get a little biased. Avsim is far from being the only place simmers get together. FSW has a lot of disscussions on the steam forums, even more than we have here in Avsim.

There is a lot of people using reddit.com/flightsim too. And I don't think most of them are retired people that invested a lot of their money over the years. It's common to see people on steams forums that are just starting in the hobby, using FSW.