//rant mode onAnd again: a new plane is out, FeelThere's "The Legacy".And again, right after the release, the corresponding FeelThere forum fills up with people having problems and discovering this and that bug.Taking FeelThere only as an example which one could replace with so many other developers in the FS scene, it's interesting to see that every time an add-on is released, exactly the same pattern of actions is going to be followed:First, people start to complain about bugs. Then, after the forums filled up long enough with such messages, the developer announces a service pack to follow "soon".When the patch is finally released, there's still a bunch of open problems (and maybe new ones as well) which "will be fixed in service pack 2" as the developer announces after receiving new negative messages.Usually, SP2 takes much longer to be released than SP1. In some cases, a sequence of small patches (SP1.1, SP1.2, SP1.3, SP2, SP2.1 etc. etc.) is released relatively shortly one after another instead of a single patch.Finally, only a small number of bugs still exist, but the developer now takes some rest, knowing the majority of problems being fixed and the big part of customers being satisfied. The remaining bugs usually are either more cosmetic or very serious, but affecting only certain discrete situations.So, the developer makes vague statements about a new SP. Sometimes such an SP really is going to make it to become reality (sometimes even after more than a year), sometimes another patch will never be released at all.That's the normal way, and people/customers seem to be happy with it. Otherwise I couldn't explain why this happens _every single time_.But, exceptions prove the rule, and there are indeed exceptions. One outstanding comes to my mind: Dreamfleet's 727. Look at what they've done: release of the product, only a handful of uncritical and small bugs, an "SP" in form of a practically new product after one year, almost no single bug no more. No endless bug wading in the forums, no SP after the other, no false promises, no problems.Seems like some have found the secret to provide almost bug free products right at the release.Imagine your car being developped like an FS add-on. Would you accept this? Would you buy from the same vandor again?Because exactly this is what happens: the same developer goes through the same bug-SP-bug cycle with every add-on he releases! And people keep on buying. Almost unbelievable.Sure, there could be arguments that this is normal (the FS world is not that professional etc. etc.)But there are two points which one should take into consideration: someone issues a buggy product and takes your very money, and he does this every time you buy from him, and on the other hand, some don't do this but rather deliver a good product.Isn't the latter what most would wish and expect?!For me, I guess it's time we all should reconsider the way add-ons are produced and whether the bug-SP-cycle really must take place.IMHO it's almost ridiculous that either no one ever learns something from history (the FS world is small enough to allow for a learning effect), or many get a "kick" from bad experiences and look for them like addicted.I for my part could live with a release with few bugs and a service pack, but I refuse to be part of the cycle as a paying customer any longer. That's why I ceased buying new products the day they're released, and before an SP is out. The're enough great add-ons already available, and for me, new ones need to be of comparable quality before I buy.But as long as the market accepts the way it currently is, nothing will change - and I'll keep reading funny messages in the forums;-)//rant mode offAndreas

I guess people buy add-ons from vendors who they trust. feelThere is one to be known with one of the most outstanding customer service so it's safe to buy from them. I agree it's your choice to get it on the first day or after a month or so however your example of buying a car with Sp is a pretty bad example. I don't want to bash Dreamfleet but the 727's system is nowhere nearby to the complex FMS driven add ons such as feelThere's, PMDG's and LevD's. It's a nice add on but you are comparing apples to oranges. I'm sure it's the same crowd who are the first to flame the developer when it announces an SP is the same who asks for more features and lower price. It's impossible. Years back you released a textured tube and you called it an airplane and it was a huge success. Today these developers are releasing products that are compared to hunders of thousands worth of training software. Don't laugh I know it from fact some airline recommends some FS products to their pilots to train themselves. In the meantime we pay this product $40 or so. I highly doubt there is enough money to make for these developers to allow them to have months of long beta testing with real testers (not pilots and fans but professional REAL gametesters).So getting to the point; you are absolutelly right it seems to be accepted to have one or more SPs after the release but I think this can make these developers going and develope. It's your choice to get the plane asap or wait a little for the fixes but with all due respect we should not rant if a developer releases something and fixes it within a few days.My 2 centsqfaluvr

The point is the developers have the knowledge and skill needed to fix the problems, but they release the plane with so many bugs, no plane has ever been flyable as soon as it had been released. If they can indeed fix the problems, then why not fix them in the beggining, do they think we wont notice? They should at least give it some heavy duty testing, fire it up fly it and see how it preforms, most products are released with very noticable problems that could be caught with a short full procedure flight.

>//rant mode on>>Imagine your car being developped like an FS add-on. Would you>accept this? Would you buy from the same vandor again?>>>//rant mode off>>AndreasAndreas,As an end user, you have all the rights in the world to complain but as a developer I feel you don't grasp what's involved in trying to please 100% of the people 100% of the time with a $40-$50 product.Your analogy of comparing FS add-ons to a car is flawed. I challenge you to find a $40 car that works as well as the, so called, flawed FS developers releases. If an add-on was worth the value of a car, then you might see some differences.I would also like to point out that most developers do this on the side and have regular day jobs. It is done as a passion and doesn't pay many bills in the end.As for releasing SP's. Would you like it that we never released them? At some point in developing an add-on, a lock down on features and design has to be made and the product released. Nothing is perfect and to wait a while for a SP on a $40 add-on won't send you off the deep end. Otherwise, we could be doing this forever and never release a product. To use your analogy, how many new cars out there have had recalls and breakdowns right off the lot?Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpgwww.SSTSIM.com

I wouldn't blame the developers myself.Developers make products and sub-conciously know how to use them so they don't break.The beta testers are the ones who are supposed to find these problems. When you have beta teams made up of friends and kiss arses you won't find many problems at all.

>The point is the developers have the knowledge and skill>needed to fix the problems, but they release the plane with so>many bugs, no plane has ever been flyable as soon as it had>been released. If they can indeed fix the problems, then why>not fix them in the beggining, do they think we wont notice?>They should at least give it some heavy duty testing, fire it>up fly it and see how it preforms, most products are released>with very noticable problems that could be caught with a short>full procedure flight.Wow, now that's a fairly confident statement that the developers don't know what their doing and We, as developers, should take offence to such statements. Please post a listing of add-on aircraft that weren't flyable at release. I'm sure there are some minor bugs but I but you they could fly!You make it sound like we sit at our computers making pretty models, systems galore, and nice sounds without even flying it. I'll gaurantee you that most add-ons out there are Alpha and Beta tested for more hours than you can imagine. That being said I find your post unknowledgable and condescending and challenge you to post valid examples of your statement.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpgwww.SSTSIM.com

>I wouldn't blame the developers myself.>>Developers make products and sub-conciously know how to use>them so they don't break.>>The beta testers are the ones who are supposed to find these>problems. When you have beta teams made up of friends and kiss>arses you won't find many problems at all.Another ignorant and condescending comment without fact or substantiation.Beta testers are not friends or kiss arses as you say. Have you been a Beta tester or a developer? Beta testers are an essential element to the development team and can be very hard on a release, as they should be. Beta testers are, in a sense, our greatest asset and sometimes our worst enemy.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpgwww.SSTSIM.com

My impression is that comsumer software testing (not just Flt Sim) is extremely inefficient. I don't think so-called Beta testing really acomplishes that much.If developers were to put in place a professional software engineering process with a complete test program, they would probably have to charge x2 to recover costs.The biggest problem is capturing all the possible system variations that users can have. Also the SDKs are not perfect.scott s..

A properly run Beta test program is not extremely inefficient. Sure, there is some duplication but trust me, it accomplishes more than you think. Where did you get this notion from anyway?If developers were to put in place a "preffesional software engineering process", you nor anyone else in this "hobby" could afford an add-on and then listen to the complainers. When you look at units sold and what this would cost, you're very conservative at x2. Think more like x10+ to make up for the shortfall in sales. Pro. software engineering is not cheap.What is it with poeple now. Can't they just fire up MSFS and have some fun? Or is it "Nail The Developers to The Wall Week"? Listen to yourselves!Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpgwww.SSTSIM.com

>//rant mode on>>And again: a new plane is out, FeelThere's "The Legacy".>>And again, right after the release, the corresponding>FeelThere forum fills up with people having problems and>discovering this and that bug.>>Taking FeelThere only as an example which one could replace>with so many other developers in the FS scene, it's>interesting to see that every time an add-on is released,>exactly the same pattern of actions is going to be followed:>>First, people start to complain about bugs. Then, after the>forums filled up long enough with such messages, the developer>announces a service pack to follow "soon".>>When the patch is finally released, there's still a bunch of>open problems (and maybe new ones as well) which "will be>fixed in service pack 2" as the developer announces after>receiving new negative messages.>>Usually, SP2 takes much longer to be released than SP1. In>some cases, a sequence of small patches (SP1.1, SP1.2, SP1.3,>SP2, SP2.1 etc. etc.) is released relatively shortly one after>another instead of a single patch.>>Finally, only a small number of bugs still exist, but the>developer now takes some rest, knowing the majority of>problems being fixed and the big part of customers being>satisfied. The remaining bugs usually are either more cosmetic>or very serious, but affecting only certain discrete>situations.>>So, the developer makes vague statements about a new SP.>Sometimes such an SP really is going to make it to become>reality (sometimes even after more than a year), sometimes>another patch will never be released at all.>>That's the normal way, and people/customers seem to be happy>with it. Otherwise I couldn't explain why this happens _every>single time_.>>But, exceptions prove the rule, and there are indeed>exceptions. One outstanding comes to my mind: Dreamfleet's>727. Look at what they've done: release of the product, only a>handful of uncritical and small bugs, an "SP" in form of a>practically new product after one year, almost no single bug>no more. No endless bug wading in the forums, no SP after the>other, no false promises, no problems.>>Seems like some have found the secret to provide almost bug>free products right at the release.>>Imagine your car being developped like an FS add-on. Would you>accept this? Would you buy from the same vandor again?>>Because exactly this is what happens: the same developer goes>through the same bug-SP-bug cycle with every add-on he>releases! And people keep on buying. Almost unbelievable.>>Sure, there could be arguments that this is normal (the FS>world is not that professional etc. etc.)>>But there are two points which one should take into>consideration: someone issues a buggy product and takes your>very money, and he does this every time you buy from him, and>on the other hand, some don't do this but rather deliver a>good product.>>Isn't the latter what most would wish and expect?!>>For me, I guess it's time we all should reconsider the way>add-ons are produced and whether the bug-SP-cycle really must>take place.>>IMHO it's almost ridiculous that either no one ever learns>something from history (the FS world is small enough to allow>for a learning effect), or many get a "kick" from bad>experiences and look for them like addicted.>>I for my part could live with a release with few bugs and a>service pack, but I refuse to be part of the cycle as a paying>customer any longer. That's why I ceased buying new products>the day they're released, and before an SP is out. The're>enough great add-ons already available, and for me, new ones>need to be of comparable quality before I buy.>>But as long as the market accepts the way it currently is,>nothing will change - and I'll keep reading funny messages in>the forums;-)>>//rant mode off>>AndreasDude, what are you smoking?I've completed 4 flights with the Legacy, and -using the caps key for the hearing impaired:THERE ARE NO SHOWSTOPPING BUGS!.ricardo

I get upset when I visit a forum to try and find answers to problems Im having with a brand new release only to see a huge banner announcing work has began on the next project.Then you start reading through post and get the impression once that sucker is out the door, its time to forget it and move on.I respect the developers that follow through with fixes,enhancements and give older releases a new facelift.Alot seem to capitalize on the "NEW" release which everyone just has to have. They dump it on us,wash their hands of it and begin the whole pre release hype for the next latest,greatest all over again.

>I get upset when I visit a forum to try and find answers to>problems Im having with a brand new release only to see a huge>banner announcing work has began on the next project.>Then you start reading through post and get the impression>once that sucker is out the door, its time to forget it and>move on.>I respect the developers that follow through with>fixes,enhancements and give older releases a new facelift.>Alot seem to capitalize on the "NEW" release which everyone>just has to have. They dump it on us,wash their hands of it>and begin the whole pre release hype for the next>latest,greatest all over again.JIMJAM,I'll go out on a limb here and assume you're painting ALL developers with the stained brush from a certain single developer whom I'll leave un-named? I, for one, have decided to never support that un-named developer for just the reasons you're painting all developers with. That's very unfair for those of us that strive to give you, and everyone else, the best product available under the platform restrictions of MSFS. If you have a beef with certain developers, please keep it with them and don't stain the good reputations of the developers out there trying their damdest to give you and everyone else the best product we can give.One more time I'll ask. What is it lately that puts people in this mood? It's a new moon for crying out loud so we can't blame a full moon on it.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpgwww.SSTSIM.com

>A properly run Beta test program is not extremely>inefficient. Sure, there is some duplication but trust me, it>accomplishes more than you think. Where did you get this>notion from anyway?>And I'll repeat those words!I've worked with several beta test groups for flight simulation products. In all cases that I'm personally familiar with, the tests were very structured, professionally ran, and produced positive results. There is simply no way to throw a blanket statement over all developers. It's a case by case basis, and nothing else.

Ricardo,you're the first who didn't understand what I've wrote, congratulations!The fact that you've flown the Legacy successfully has absolutely nothing to do with my statements.If you can't contribute, please don't post.P.S.: I'm no dude, and I'm a non-smoker, Mister. If you like to make this a personal dispute, I must disappoint you since I don't step down to your level.Andreas

>>//rant mode on>>>>And again: a new plane is out, FeelThere's "The Legacy".>>>>And again, right after the release, the corresponding>>FeelThere forum fills up with people having problems and>>discovering this and that bug.>>>>Taking FeelThere only as an example which one could replace>>with so many other developers in the FS scene, it's>>interesting to see that every time an add-on is released,>>exactly the same pattern of actions is going to be followed:>>>>First, people start to complain about bugs. Then, after the>>forums filled up long enough with such messages, the>developer>>announces a service pack to follow "soon".>>>>When the patch is finally released, there's still a bunch of>>open problems (and maybe new ones as well) which "will be>>fixed in service pack 2" as the developer announces after>>receiving new negative messages.>>>>Usually, SP2 takes much longer to be released than SP1. In>>some cases, a sequence of small patches (SP1.1, SP1.2,>SP1.3,>>SP2, SP2.1 etc. etc.) is released relatively shortly one>after>>another instead of a single patch.>>>>Finally, only a small number of bugs still exist, but the>>developer now takes some rest, knowing the majority of>>problems being fixed and the big part of customers being>>satisfied. The remaining bugs usually are either more>cosmetic>>or very serious, but affecting only certain discrete>>situations.>>>>So, the developer makes vague statements about a new SP.>>Sometimes such an SP really is going to make it to become>>reality (sometimes even after more than a year), sometimes>>another patch will never be released at all.>>>>That's the normal way, and people/customers seem to be happy>>with it. Otherwise I couldn't explain why this happens>_every>>single time_.>>>>But, exceptions prove the rule, and there are indeed>>exceptions. One outstanding comes to my mind: Dreamfleet's>>727. Look at what they've done: release of the product, only>a>>handful of uncritical and small bugs, an "SP" in form of a>>practically new product after one year, almost no single bug>>no more. No endless bug wading in the forums, no SP after>the>>other, no false promises, no problems.>>>>Seems like some have found the secret to provide almost bug>>free products right at the release.>>>>Imagine your car being developped like an FS add-on. Would>you>>accept this? Would you buy from the same vandor again?>>>>Because exactly this is what happens: the same developer>goes>>through the same bug-SP-bug cycle with every add-on he>>releases! And people keep on buying. Almost unbelievable.>>>>Sure, there could be arguments that this is normal (the FS>>world is not that professional etc. etc.)>>>>But there are two points which one should take into>>consideration: someone issues a buggy product and takes your>>very money, and he does this every time you buy from him,>and>>on the other hand, some don't do this but rather deliver a>>good product.>>>>Isn't the latter what most would wish and expect?!>>>>For me, I guess it's time we all should reconsider the way>>add-ons are produced and whether the bug-SP-cycle really>must>>take place.>>>>IMHO it's almost ridiculous that either no one ever learns>>something from history (the FS world is small enough to>allow>>for a learning effect), or many get a "kick" from bad>>experiences and look for them like addicted.>>>>I for my part could live with a release with few bugs and a>>service pack, but I refuse to be part of the cycle as a>paying>>customer any longer. That's why I ceased buying new products>>the day they're released, and before an SP is out. The're>>enough great add-ons already available, and for me, new ones>>need to be of comparable quality before I buy.>>>>But as long as the market accepts the way it currently is,>>nothing will change - and I'll keep reading funny messages>in>>the forums;-)>>>>//rant mode off>>>>Andreas>>>Dude, what are you smoking?>>I've completed 4 flights with the Legacy, and -using the caps>key for the hearing impaired:>>THERE ARE NO SHOWSTOPPING BUGS!.>>ricardoRicardo,Well done yet another topic you didn't read. Hopefully at school tomorrow they will start teaching you how to read, it will be very helpful in life!! I'm sure your parents will be very proud of you.Good luck.