250kts below 10,000

[JRBarrett 3,071]

33 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

Yeah, the 7110.65 makes note of this as well (controllers should issues instructions in such a way that permits clean config as much as possible, etc).

There are a few at LAX that specify 250 knots max, but they all have alternate SIDs without that limit (additionally, the rest without alternate versions are in the direction of shorter-hop traffic - NORCAL, LAS, transcon, etc.).

I was thinking in the case of KATL, that the 250 knots is a minimum, not a maximum. Due to the very high number of departures, they want all aircraft to get up to speed and on their way as quickly as possible. I think most KATL SIDS specify a climb directly to 10,000 feet as well, again with the goal of keeping traffic flowing. Listening to ATL departure on LiveATC, it seems most aircraft are cleared higher well before reaching 10,000 feet, with the expectation of further acceleration as soon as passing that altitude.

It seems the ATL departures philosophy is “Y’all git outta town pronto, hear?”😎

[scandinavian13 5,192]

12 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

It seems the ATL departures philosophy is “Y’all git outta town pronto, hear?”😎

Yeah, with the amount they have, I don't blame them...

[skelsey 765]

3 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Not that I'd specifically discourage it, but the 7110.65 actually specifically states (to controllers) that pilots abiding by 91.117 will do so without notification:

"1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without notification."
(emphasis mine)

Indeed. Here's the advice (non-type specific) from an airline to its pilots:

Quote

Speed Control
In accordance with Federal Aviation regulations:

a. Aircraft speed shall not exceed 250 kts IAS during flight below 10,000ft asl, unless otherwise authorised.
Note: That maintaining a speed above 250 kts, level at 10,000ft, is acceptable. The practice of (a) maintaining high speed on arrival or (b) increasing speed above 250 kts on departure, while the aircraft is below 10,000ft and more than 12 nm off the coast (e.g. JFK) MUST be co-ordinated with ATC.

b. Airport Traffic Area (4.34 nm radius of an airport, ground level to, but not including 3,000ft). Aircraft speed shall not exceed 200 kts.

c. If the minimum airspeed for safe manoeuvrability is greater than the above, the aircraft may be operated at that speed (controllers advise that this should be co-ordinated with ATC). Notify ATC if flying more than 10 kts LESS than planned speed.

(My emphasis). My reading of that is: you're not required to, but controllers with a string of departures have indicated back to the airline that they would prefer to know what actual IAS you are planning to fly.

[BlueStar 323]

34 minutes ago, skelsey said:

(My emphasis). My reading of that is: you're not required to, but controllers with a string of departures have indicated back to the airline that they would prefer to know what actual IAS you are planning to fly.

Simon,

I'm not real sure I understand what you are saying? 🙂

A departure that I see a couple times a month out of PANC is the NOEND FOUR.  On that departure there is a "Do no exceed 230K until passing LIFFE."  All departures off PANC on that SID have to comply with the speed restriction at LIFFE.  Can that speed be exceeded with ATC approval, probably.  As Kyle said earlier if the aircraft can not comply with the SID file a SID the aircraft can comply.  

One thing an aircraft commander (A/C) must realize is that if the aircraft fails to comply with a speed or altitude restriction, whether it is by FAR or from ATC instructions, that loss of separation will be on the A/C.  🙂

Grace and Peace, 

[Ephedrin 418]

1 minute ago, Bluestar said:

Do no exceed 230K

That‘s why there is „NO END“

[JRBarrett 3,071]

1 hour ago, Bluestar said:

Simon,

I'm not real sure I understand what you are saying? 🙂

A departure that I see a couple times a month out of PANC is the NOEND FOUR.  On that departure there is a "Do no exceed 230K until passing LIFFE."  All departures off PANC on that SID have to comply with the speed restriction at LIFFE.  Can that speed be exceeded with ATC approval, probably.  As Kyle said earlier if the aircraft can not comply with the SID file a SID the aircraft can comply.  

One thing an aircraft commander (A/C) must realize is that if the aircraft fails to comply with a speed or altitude restriction, whether it is by FAR or from ATC instructions, that loss of separation will be on the A/C.  🙂

Grace and Peace, 

I don’t think any U.S. ATC controller can waive a speed restriction - only The Administrator” can do so - which would be the case when the FAA issues a written waiver for an aircraft performing in an airshow at a specific location and time.

FAR 91.117(d) might still apply for a heavy 747 in this case, but as it happens, I flew that very SID in the sim last night on my maiden flight after installing the 747-8F, and it was a non-issue.

I was headed to CVG, with a full load of cargo, and a TOW of 720,000 pounds. I used a climb 1 derate, and was still in the process of retracting flaps on schedule and accelerating when I arrived at LIFFE. I was in no position to exceed the restriction, because I had not even accelerated to 230 KIAS  yet at that point, much less 250.

Since the speed restriction appeared in the FMS at LIFFE, as did the “above 3000 feet” restriction at the preceding waypoint EGKAJ, it appeared the FMS constructed a vertical profile which insured that both restrictions were met. The aircraft had to climb rather steeply to make 3000 feet at EGKAJ, and did not even reach the flaps 10 retraction speed until completing the turn towards LIFFE.

If the aircraft had been lightly loaded it might have been more problematical.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

case of something like an airshow, where a high-performance aircraft might need to do so as part of their routine. In that case, permission would be given in the form of a written waiver issued in advance.

I think a TFR would be issued for an airshow ... I know they are in SF/Bay Area when the Blue Angles are in town and given the proximity to several major international airports it keeps the controllers VERY busy.

Cheers, Rob.

[JRBarrett 3,071]

59 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

I think a TFR would be issued for an airshow ... I know they are in SF/Bay Area when the Blue Angles are in town and given the proximity to several major international airports it keeps the controllers VERY busy.

Cheers, Rob.

Yes, TFRs are now routine for aishows to protect the airspace, but waivers permitting speeds faster than that allowed by FAE 91.117 may be necessary too - mainly for civilian pilots of high-performance ex-military aircraft. FAA-licensed pilots are still subject to various FAR provisions even while performing in air shows, while military pilots are not. (Especially the demo teams like the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds).

I know that at one airshow I where I worked as a show-side volunteer several years ago, a privately-owned F86 and MiG 17 were featured, emulating Korean War dogfighting techniques and low-level bombing and strafing. Both pilots had to obtain written waivers from the FAA because during part of their display both aircraft would be exceeding the 250 KIAS below 10,000 restriction of 91.117(a), as well as the 200 airport traffic area knot restriction of 91.117(b)

This was pre-9/11. With modern TFR provisions, the rules may be different. In the earlier example, the airspace was not closed for the entire duration of the show day, but only while individual performers were airborne. In between acts, the airspace was opened to allow scheduled airline flights to land and depart.

[thibodba57 462]

4 hours ago, skelsey said:

Indeed. Here's the advice (non-type specific) from an airline to its pilots:

(My emphasis). My reading of that is: you're not required to, but controllers with a string of departures have indicated back to the airline that they would prefer to know what actual IAS you are planning to fly.

Why I added my statement normally a courtesy call is in order. But as you do these enough times you know when you can pipe in or keep your mouth shut.  I just normally do it on check-in.  "Giant 400, 2000 climbing 4000, 280 in the climb today.". That of course is in the US with no language barrier.  Over seas it's a more drawn out process in areas you know you shouldn't exceed 250.

[BlueStar 323]

1 hour ago, JRBarrett said:

I don’t think any U.S. ATC controller can waive a speed restriction

I don't think that a speed/altitde restriction on a SID/STAR needs the Administrators approval to be waived.  Speed restrictions on SIDS/STARS are to make ATCs job easier and can be changed by ATC as necessary. 🙂

Grace and Peace,

Edited September 24, 2018 by Bluestar

[thibodba57 462]

3 hours ago, Bluestar said:

Simon,

I'm not real sure I understand what you are saying? 🙂

A departure that I see a couple times a month out of PANC is the NOEND FOUR.  On that departure there is a "Do no exceed 230K until passing LIFFE."  All departures off PANC on that SID have to comply with the speed restriction at LIFFE.  Can that speed be exceeded with ATC approval, probably.  As Kyle said earlier if the aircraft can not comply with the SID file a SID the aircraft can comply.  

One thing an aircraft commander (A/C) must realize is that if the aircraft fails to comply with a speed or altitude restriction, whether it is by FAR or from ATC instructions, that loss of separation will be on the A/C.  🙂

Grace and Peace, 

In the rest of the world yes. It's a very very common thing in Hong Kong especially.  If the speed is for terrain clearances you might not want to bump it up.  However if it's for traffic flow, if they tell you to giddy up you best get moving as they will probably start issuing it to everyone heavy aircraft or not.  As to the US I'm not sure if I've ever had some controller try to pull be off a posted speed on a star.  Maybe it has and we just did it.  If someone wants me out of there airspace I'll happily obilge.

Edited September 24, 2018 by thibodba57

[BlueStar 323]

4 minutes ago, thibodba57 said:

If someone wants me out of there airspace I'll happily abilge.

Brian,

I've seen/heard it more than once for some A/C that was being difficult get the infamous vectors "for last." 🙂

 

[JRBarrett 3,071]

42 minutes ago, Bluestar said:

I don't think that a speed/altitde restriction on a SID/STAR needs the Administrators approval to be waived.  Speed restrictions on SIDS/STARS are to make ATCs job easier and can be changed by ATC as necessary. 🙂

Grace and Peace,

Yes, ATC has discretion to shorten a STAR or SID routing, give directs, early climb or descent etc. What a U.S. controller, (unlike in Europe), cannot do is give any aircraft a formal clearance to exceed the fundamental speed restriction of 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet set forth in FAR 91.117(a).

Anything less than 250 KIAS is a different matter. Approach controllers in particular routinely give descending aircraft specific speeds to maintain.

But, in climb, (in the U.S.) the pilot in command of an aircraft does have authority to exceed the 250 KIAS regulatory restriction if the normal safe operating characteristics of the aircraft require a higher speed. The pilot doesn’t have to ask permission, and the controller could not give permission in any case. As others have pointed out, it would be advisable and a matter of common courtesy to advise ATC of what IAS will be used, though at a place like KJFK, there is probably no need to bother.

At an airport with many daily international departures, no controller would give a heavy 747 or 777 climbing out at 265 or 270 knots a second thought. On the other hand, if Joe Charterpilot in his Lear 45 goes blasting up at 270 or 280 knots on initial climb, he’s definitely going to “have some ‘splainin to do”.

[berts 97]

The vast majority of B744 operators use a normal economy climb speed schedule which helps to minimise trip cost.  The economy climb speed is influenced by fuel costs (i.e reflected in the FMC's Cost Index) as well as the gross weight of the aircraft.  These two factors enable the FMC to generate a fixed speed schedule for each flight and, in the case of the B744, the economy climb speed will exceed 250kts for all gross weights. However, in order to comply with ATC speed restrictions and to keep things simple (and safe) from an operating perspective, the FMC climb speed is limited below 10,000ft  to 250kts, or the FLAPS UP maneuvering speed, whichever is greater.  

This is the conventional way ATC normally expects a B744 to be operated after takeoff anywhere in the world (i.e. climbing clean as soon as possible) - unless the speed restriction is there for a specific purpose such as a performance restriction, obstacle clearance, minimum crossing altitude, ATC separation purposes on the day etc. There are other speed options available to the pilots using the FMC in these special cases, which enable the aircraft to fly at a maximum rate climb (FMC Best Angle +25kts/.85 Mach) or a maximum angle climb (Flaps Up +20kts/.84 Mach).

The most important factor of all is that the aircraft is always operated safely and if this means flying faster than 250kts below 10,000ft when ATC require it, then the pilots must of course inform ATC that they are "unable to comply" and be prepared to say why.           

Edited September 24, 2018 by berts
deleted text

[BlueStar 323]

3 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

cannot do is give any aircraft a formal clearance to exceed the fundamental speed restriction of 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet set forth in FAR 91.117(a).

Agreed.

3 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

But, in climb, (in the U.S.) the pilot in command of an aircraft does have authority to exceed the 250 KIAS regulatory restriction if the normal safe operating characteristics of the aircraft require a higher speed. The pilot doesn’t have to ask permission

Are you saying that if ATC restricts the aircraft to 250KIAS in the climb that the A/C does not have to comply? 🙂