Deltaair1212

Lear 35A crosswind landing

Recommended Posts

This evening I was doing an approach into KTNP airport (29Palms designs). The winds were 330 20 gusting 25. So I decided to use runway 26. 26-8 is 75ft wide. Although not the biggest strip of asphalt in the world, it should have been adequate for a small Lear. So I thought. As soon as my wheels touched the ground on the centerline, I started drifting to the left so I put in full rudder to compensate but it’s like the aircraft didn’t even respond to my inputs. Well... it did but really slowly. I ended up in the dirt before my inputs finally came to. Shouldn’t the rudder on the Lear be more responsive? In real life I’m sure if any pilot had as much rudder I had they wouldn’t have just ran off the runway like that. I made sure my YD was off. Anything else I could have missed?

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Did you turn on the steering lock, at slower speeds when the rudder authority is not sufficient the steering lock needs to be on? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, MartinRex007 said:

Did you turn on the steering lock, at slower speeds when the rudder authority is not sufficient the steering lock needs to be on? 

 

Hi there. When I first started flying the Lear it took some getting used to remembering to turn it on but I figured out that I can’t until I’m slower than 30 knots I believe. Anything over that and it simply won’t turn on. I have tried before. So I can only use my rudder inputs to steer which can be a little challenging. Is there a way I can turn the steering on sooner? Or just have it on all the time? 

Share this post


Link to post

Actually I think you're right you have to be going pretty slow before it will engage, I think that is how the real one is? It also turns off at the same speed it goes on, so no you can't change it or leave it one all the time, that would be too easy lol. So yes, it can be a challenge keeping her straight on the roll out until engaging the steering lock!

Share this post


Link to post

Back in the days of FS9 (FS2004), there was a problem of incorrect dynamics of movement when controlling the rudder after touching the runway. The aircraft continued to move in the direction with which there was a touch and the full rudder was not enough to correct the demolition. Always had to correct the demolition before touching the runway still in the air. I don't know if this was fixed in P3D, but in FSX this problem also existed. Since then, I always correct the demolition still in the air.

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Nickbe said:

Back in the days of FS9 (FS2004), there was a problem of incorrect dynamics of movement when controlling the rudder after touching the runway. The aircraft continued to move in the direction with which there was a touch and the full rudder was not enough to correct the demolition. Always had to correct the demolition before touching the runway still in the air. I don't know if this was fixed in P3D, but in FSX this problem also existed. Since then, I always correct the demolition still in the air.

That sounds like my issue. When my wheels dig into the pavement they just kept on going sideways even with full rudder input. It’s like I was sliding on glass! The runway was dry as a bone (being in the hot California desert lol). 

Share this post


Link to post

Did you add aileron correction once you were on the ground? Once you touch down, you should be rolling the ailerons into the wind until you hit the travel limits in the flight controls. In the real 35, crosswind landings can be extremely challenging. The airplane has a relatively small rudder, and the tip tanks sit less than 3 feet above the ground. Its important to touch down with little to no bank angle.

Share this post


Link to post

As Nickbe referenced, this has been an issue at least since the olden days of FS9. The Microsoft Flight Simulator platforms since that one, and now Prepar3D, have all greatly exaggerated the effects of crosswinds on aircraft smaller than airliners. I've had this issue with more aircraft than I can count over my years as a desktop airman. Unfortunately, the Flysimware Learjet is no exception. Its very frustrating in that aircraft that, in real life, should be able to easily handle crosswinds (with proper pilot technique) become virtually unflyable under similar conditions in FS or P3D.

 

I've worked at airports for quite a number of years and have seen the behavior of Lears, among many other aircraft, in crosswinds, and many times. I also have some hours as a Cessna pilot.   During a trip from KDLH in the Flysimware Lear, while, taxiing to the active, I had a right quartering tailwind with gusts in the neighborhood of 15+ knots. Even while simply taxiing, the aircraft was weathervaning.   I had to compensate for it with opposite rudder, even at taxiing speed.  While one might expect this in a Cessna 152 it's completely unrealistic in a Learjet. Needless to say, the aircraft was barely controllable on the takeoff roll, even with nearly full manipulation of the ruder pedals. Again, completely unrealistic.   Deltaair's experience strikes me the same way.  

 

There's a way to compensate for it; it's worked for me in most of the aircraft I've tried it on, and in the case of the Lear, has produced excellent results. The key is to go into the aircraft.cfg and decrease the area of the vertical stabilizer and increase the area of the rudder, and increase the rudder effectiveness.

It took a fair amount of trial and error to get it just right, but I'm very happy with the way it turned out.

The aircraft behaves in a way that approximates the real one, and I've found I still have to use the proper crosswind technique to execute good takeoffs and landings in such conditions.

Share this post


Link to post

When taxiing, ailerons (yoke) should be turned "into" a crosswind headwind, and "away" from a crosswind tailwind (and yoke forward with a tailwind).

Al

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, tatfsn said:

As Nickbe referenced, this has been an issue at least since the olden days of FS9. The Microsoft Flight Simulator platforms since that one, and now Prepar3D, have all greatly exaggerated the effects of crosswinds on aircraft smaller than airliners. I've had this issue with more aircraft than I can count over my years as a desktop airman. Unfortunately, the Flysimware Learjet is no exception. Its very frustrating in that aircraft that, in real life, should be able to easily handle crosswinds (with proper pilot technique) become virtually unflyable under similar conditions in FS or P3D.

 

I've worked at airports for quite a number of years and have seen the behavior of Lears, among many other aircraft, in crosswinds, and many times. I also have some hours as a Cessna pilot.   During a trip from KDLH in the Flysimware Lear, while, taxiing to the active, I had a right quartering tailwind with gusts in the neighborhood of 15+ knots. Even while simply taxiing, the aircraft was weathervaning.   I had to compensate for it with opposite rudder, even at taxiing speed.  While one might expect this in a Cessna 152 it's completely unrealistic in a Learjet. Needless to say, the aircraft was barely controllable on the takeoff roll, even with nearly full manipulation of the ruder pedals. Again, completely unrealistic.   Deltaair's experience strikes me the same way.  

 

There's a way to compensate for it; it's worked for me in most of the aircraft I've tried it on, and in the case of the Lear, has produced excellent results. The key is to go into the aircraft.cfg and decrease the area of the vertical stabilizer and increase the area of the rudder, and increase the rudder effectiveness.

It took a fair amount of trial and error to get it just right, but I'm very happy with the way it turned out.

The aircraft behaves in a way that approximates the real one, and I've found I still have to use the proper crosswind technique to execute good takeoffs and landings in such conditions.

What figures did you change with the rudder? Can you give me your numbers so I can try them out? 

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not convinced it is a good idea to mess with the Lear's rudder dimensions unless capceo (Joe) thinks that's a good idea. Joe's not only an experienced simmer, but his "day job" is flying the Lear 35 so no one is in a better position to compare the crosswind handing of the Lear35 in the sim to its real world handling.

Al

Edited by ark

Share this post


Link to post

Hmmm. Okay. Well I really need to know because after that night it needs to be tweaked. I had full rudder in and it’s like I didn’t have any at all lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, Deltaair1212 said:

Hmmm. Okay. Well I really need to know because after that night it needs to be tweaked. I had full rudder in and it’s like I didn’t have any at all lol. 

Certainly feel free to make whatever changes you want, after all, you can always change back if you want to. My point was if Joe thinks the sim handling is realistic, then if I have a problem with crosswind landings that tells me I just have to get better at it (which would not surprise me a bit since Joe said above the Lear35 is a challenge in a crosswind).

Al

Edited by ark

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, ark said:

Certainly feel free to make whatever changes you want, after all, you can always change back if you want to. My point was if Joe thinks the sim handling is realistic, then if I have a problem with crosswind landings that tells me I just have to get better at it (which would not surprise me a bit since Joe said above the Lear35 is a challenge in a crosswind).

Al

True lol

Share this post


Link to post

 

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 4:58 PM, ark said:

I'm not convinced it is a good idea to mess with the Lear's rudder dimensions unless capceo (Joe) thinks that's a good idea. Joe's not only an experienced simmer, but his "day job" is flying the Lear 35 so no one is in a better position to compare the crosswind handing of the Lear35 in the sim to its real world handling.

Al

I have the utmost respect for your points, and for any real world pilot who has he chops to fly Lears in real life.   I wouldn't dream of challenging

such a person's knowledge.

 

This is no reflection on such folks, but about Flight Simulator and Prepar3D. As a very long standing, wildly enthusiastic flight simulation enthusiast,

I consider this software, and the people who develop it, and these addons, all but miraculous.   I could never have imagined that we'd have such amazing

stuff twenty years, or even ten years ago.  But there's no getting around the limitations, as amazing and  sophisticated as its current state of the art is.  

  

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 5:21 PM, Deltaair1212 said:

Hmmm. Okay. Well I really need to know because after that night it needs to be tweaked. I had full rudder in and it’s like I didn’t have any at all lol. 

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you.   When I sat down to send this info last night, my internet access was down.   In any case, below are 

the tweaks to the .cfg file that I use.   They've worked great for me in P3D v4.3.   (Mind you, I just upgraded to v4.4 and haven't had a chance to really

test the settings in that version yet.)

They are:

 Rudder effectiveness: 1.9 

vtail area:  20.0

rudder area:  18.28

One suggestion: be sure to save the original .cfg settings or even better, the entire original .cfg file, in case these don't work for you.

Please let me know how things go after you try them.

Good luck!.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now