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As a husband I hated my wife's employer forcing her to wear makeup to look good in administrative meetings for her school system and work in education.  I felt it sexist and exploitative and it was for me, the true glass ceiling, telling a woman what they had to put on their body to have the "look" men wanted in the workplace.  And since I have a daughter, I do not want to see her future that way either. as a friend said: God (our parents) all made us equally different.  Some parents supported this, some just wanted to get rich at women's expense.  Kudos to Virgin for this.  This applies to men too, to be completely fair and neutral, until recent retirement I worked in a business casual city, come as you are, your mind is what we want, you could look like Godzilla but if you can work, and help us, you are hired.  In my case I pretended I was Edgar in Men in Black, in my Edgar suit, at work I would ask for water with sugar in it but I stopped doing that when I got diabetes, lol.  Hey, when u get older it is one thing or another, I like my Edgar suit wrinkles so far, they still fit and they don't hurt so much, lol!

http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/virgin-atlantic-cabin-crew-make-up-scli-intl/

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I have mixed feelings about the overall “relaxation” of dress codes and grooming guidelines that have occurred over the last 18-20 years. 

While I'm happy for the ladies too be able to skip makeup if they wish, I’d assume that most women who fly for them will still want to look good.

I’m just not a big fan of the whole casual work place idea. I used to work in banking when I was in college and we had strict dress codes for both men and women. If one of the ladies showed up without hose on they’d either be sent home or to the store and wouldn’t return until they were fully dressed. However everyone looked great, dressed to a T and very professional. Now when you walk in a bank these days it almost looks like casual Friday and half the time you can’t tell the difference between the customers and the employees. 

Its funny though because back in those days the ladies liked to look good and would often try to out dress each other, as did the men. We liked to look good and took pride in our appearance.

I notice a stark difference when I travel to Europe in the winters from the US. The ladies there, even when it’s cold still like to dress nice or dress to impress. You don’t see people walking around in pajamas and slippers like you see here.

Even though I’m not that old, I guess I’m still kind of old school and tend to over dress myself since I like to look nice and feel better when dressed appropriately. In a way I wish society would return to fashion standards like it was back in the 40’s-50’s, men dressed like men and women like women and people took pride in grooming and appearance.

I just hope we don’t devolve to the point that we’re like cave men and women stop shaving their legs and armpits, everyone has a beard and people only shower a few times a month, all in the name of comfort and individuality.

That’s just my opinion however, I know a lot of the younger crowd doesn’t like to have to adhere to dress and grooming standards that employers used to require as times change.

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I too think dress codes are appropriate in the corporate environment.  It helps to identify the department you work in.

When I got promoted from technician to non-degreed engineer I had to give up the khakis and sport short for dress shirt and tie.  It made me feel good.  

Another thing that bothers me are tattoos and body piercings.  Earrings for women are appropriate but lip rings and nose rings and eyebrow rings are disgusting.  So are tattoos that are not covered by clothes.

Now while I don't proscribe this for others I wear no jewelry, not even a wedding ring.  That was a condition of our marriage.  I wore it for the ceremony but the next day it went into it's box and has resided in a dresser drawer for the past 56 years.  

I have no tattoos.  A couple times when I was a young Marine I cane that close, but common sense won out.

I don't even wear a wrist watch.  I have a pocket watch with a chain.

I guess some folks think I'm weird, but I like to be comfortable and body adornments look uncomfortable to me.

Ready for the criticism.

Noel

 

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Posted (edited)

Guess I'm old fashioned too.  I enjoy getting up, shaving (or trimming if I have a beard going), dressing up in nice clothes and wearing a tie to work. All of the people I work with are the same, and we are a smart looking bunch within our unit, men and women both.  You can always pick out our group in the yearly picture of the department...we look awesome and are very proud of it.

Edited by netshadoe

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Great post, Sean!  When I was working as a field service tech, it was either a suit or sports coat and tie. (pants were optional)! :blink: Later the company issued "company dress shirts" that didn't require a tie.  As a tech with my hands and arms getting dirty from working on the business machines, copiers, etc, I was happy to wear the short sleeve shirts and no tie to get tangled in the works.  The young women, who were also techs,  were required to wear appropriate business attire.

Dress for success was the the code!

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Yes, it seems we live in an age of self-mutilation: Tattoos in excess, many times head to toe, every kind of facial and body rings, and perhaps we should also count suicide by opioids in alarming numbers...  

But that's all subjects best left to the shrinks...

Maybe off-subject, but on the other hand, I believe the impetus for a real, honest change in the attitude towards woman began more than a year ago, started by the least likely candidate of all, a Mr. Harvey Weinstein. His reported deeds were so atrocious, it egged-on a movement for more woman to come forward and tell their own tales of woe. This goes not only woman in the United States, but in many countries around the world there is a new demand for change.  Change that addresses not only bad deeds, but also bad attitudes, both in the work place and elsewhere.

Just the other day a U.S. Senator, the first female fighter pilot in the Air Force, testified  before Congress that she was sexually assaulted by her commanding officer many years before, but was too ashamed or scared to come forward at the time...

   

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3 hours ago, cmpbellsjc said:

I have mixed feelings about the overall “relaxation” of dress codes and grooming guidelines that have occurred over the last 18-20 years. 

While I'm happy for the ladies too be able to skip makeup if they wish, I’d assume that most women who fly for them will still want to look good.

I’m just not a big fan of the whole casual work place idea. I used to work in banking when I was in college and we had strict dress codes for both men and women. If one of the ladies showed up without hose on they’d either be sent home or to the store and wouldn’t return until they were fully dressed. However everyone looked great, dressed to a T and very professional. Now when you walk in a bank these days it almost looks like casual Friday and half the time you can’t tell the difference between the customers and the employees. 

Its funny though because back in those days the ladies liked to look good and would often try to out dress each other, as did the men. We liked to look good and took pride in our appearance.

I notice a stark difference when I travel to Europe in the winters from the US. The ladies there, even when it’s cold still like to dress nice or dress to impress. You don’t see people walking around in pajamas and slippers like you see here.

Even though I’m not that old, I guess I’m still kind of old school and tend to over dress myself since I like to look nice and feel better when dressed appropriately. In a way I wish society would return to fashion standards like it was back in the 40’s-50’s, men dressed like men and women like women and people took pride in grooming and appearance.

I just hope we don’t devolve to the point that we’re like cave men and women stop shaving their legs and armpits, everyone has a beard and people only shower a few times a month, all in the name of comfort and individuality.

That’s just my opinion however, I know a lot of the younger crowd doesn’t like to have to adhere to dress and grooming standards that employers used to require as times change.

I was happy in the days I was able to dress up, especially when I worked in customer and guest service in retail and hotel as first a customer agent, then a manager when I felt I even had to set a better example.  When I was a biz systems instructor for the first two companies I worked for, dress shoes, slacks, shirt jacket and tie were the norm and I chose conservative yet ties with enough color to express the outgoing persona my students needed to see.  It was funny, although my second company was managed by IBM, neither the IBM team members or us stuck to the "black and white" IBM known of old.  Again it was to present myself to my employees, and my students, some of the employees who were with IBM, as expressive yet conservative, respectful of my colleagues, my employees and my students.

But moving to behind the house IT in Phoenix was a game changer after my last two biz systems training jobs for Doubletree and Best Western.  I would show up in an interview dressed to the nines as I did until I quit working, and those who interviewed me, with the exception of those from India, were business casual and they simply explained in our hot climate it kept AC costs lower, and employee morale higher since they did not have to wear warm dress outside or during their commutes to the office.  In the cooler months we would revert to more standard business attire, long sleeve shirts, and sport jackets but ties were still frowned upon because even the managers in those days and up until I quit working were also roll up your sleeves programmers, or fellow WAN admins.

Women around us always dressed to be nice but comfortable due to some lusty bosses that would mentally undress them, asking for more "relaxed" dress but they were smart.  In an airline and dry climates women want to wear as little makeup as they can, otherwise their skin cannot breathe and I know from a 11 hour flight home from London how bad that can be in the ultra dry climates of every jet outside of the new 787 and A350, both of which I have yet to fly on.  Also, older, more relaxed and feminine women are more the norm rather than the mini skirt women of old, or women with uniforms too revealing.  They know how they want to look to their passengers, we customers, but also to some of the lewd male flight crew I have observed on some domestic US flights and in Latin America, less so in Europe.

Remember that Virgin was founded on the old "sexy" look of the flight attendants, a more relaxed airline like Southwest and Jet Blue are also noted for.  And an airline in Vietnam was fined for going overboard with that look, not that Vietnamese women are not some of the most gorgeous on the planet, but they can be that way in modest dress too. 

My ex wife and I enjoyed and still enjoy each other's company because I did not want her to be a "trophy" wife, I rather wanted it to be at her discretion.  She knew that I am a flaming heterosexual with hormones even hard to curb after a bad traffic accident the other day and I love the beauty of women, but I also love the Iranian women who wear their modest yet flattering dress and headscarves for their faith, and the Iranian men who dress well, as shown in Rick Steves show on Iran several years ago. 

I do not like women in the full hijab with only their eyes showing unless that is how they feel liberated from prying eyes.  I hated going to the beach especially when I became hard bodied from my walking because I did not like being ogled by women or men, even more, who could not hide who they were and would cross the line. 

My ex and I both wore conservative swim suits and often I would just hide my upper body with a shirt.  Now I have lost so much muscle mass from my diabetes weight loss and recent accident, I just see a skeleton of what I used to be and cover myself up even more.  I hope that can change, and I pray that people see themselves and treat their looks as they want to be seen first and foremost.  That is why I miss my conservative yet fun guest service and teaching uniforms the most.

John

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3 hours ago, birdguy said:

Another thing that bothers me are tattoos and body piercings.  Earrings for women are appropriate but lip rings and nose rings and eyebrow rings are disgusting.  So are tattoos that are not covered by clothes.

Now while I don't proscribe this for others I wear no jewelry, not even a wedding ring.  That was a condition of our marriage.  I wore it for the ceremony but the next day it went into it's box and has resided in a dresser drawer for the past 56 years.  

I have no tattoos.  A couple times when I was a young Marine I cane that close, but common sense won out.

 

1 hour ago, overspeed3 said:

Yes, it seems we live in an age of self-mutilation: Tattoos in excess, many times head to toe, every kind of facial and body rings   

I’m with you guys on the tattoos and body piercings, two things that I’ve never even come close to considering for myself.

I remember years ago you’d occasionally see a guy with tons of tattoos and rarely see people with facial piercings or facial tattoos. When Mike Tyson got his facial tattoo so many people, even ones with tattoos thought it was overboard. Every now and then you’d see a lady with a small ankle tattoo but even they have gone into it big time.

I think part of it is due to them wanting to emulate hip hop/rap/other music stars who have begun to get all kinds of tattoos including ones on the face. 

I always think about how these people will look when they become senior citizens and have droopy skin and wrinkles. I don’t imagine they will look so appealing then.

I do differ from Noel a little bit on the jewelry. I don’t like to wear rings or necklaces but I have developed a fondness for nice watches (Rolex, Brietling) style and have begun to collect and wear those over the past few years.

 

 

3 hours ago, netshadoe said:

Guess I'm old fashioned too.  I enjoy getting up, shaving (or trimming if I have a beard going), dressing up in nice clothes and wearing a tie to work. All of the people I work with are the same, and we are a smart looking bunch within our unit, men and women both.  You can always pick out our group in the yearly picture of the department...we look awesome and are very proud of it.

That’s exactly how it’s always been for me as well. When I was working in the finance/banking industry I loved to get dressed up in a nice suite and look like a million bucks. I'll admit that I always enjoyed the complements that went along with it. Being single at the time I also liked the way the ladies looked when they were well dressed and carried themselves with confidence.

 

3 hours ago, charliearon said:

Great post, Sean!  When I was working as a field service tech, it was either a suit or sports coat and tie. (pants were optional)! :blink: Later the company issued "company dress shirts" that didn't require a tie.  As a tech with my hands and arms getting dirty from working on the business machines, copiers, etc, I was happy to wear the short sleeve shirts and no tie to get tangled in the works.  The young women, who were also techs,  were required to wear appropriate business attire.

Dress for success was the the code!

There are times when a more relaxed dress code is called for especially when you’re doing some type of manual labor and are prone to getting dirty. In that case I don’t think anyone reasonable would expect you to be in a suit.

I go agree with the dress for success mantra or dress for the job you want, not the one you have.

Many times in my early career new people or customers always assumed I was either the boss or running the place since I was better dressed than most of the other employees, including the actual boss, lol.

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3 hours ago, cmpbellsjc said:

 

I’m with you guys on the tattoos and body piercings, two things that I’ve never even come close to considering for myself.

I remember years ago you’d occasionally see a guy with tons of tattoos and rarely see people with facial piercings or facial tattoos. When Mike Tyson got his facial tattoo so many people, even ones with tattoos thought it was overboard. Every now and then you’d see a lady with a small ankle tattoo but even they have gone into it big time.

I think part of it is due to them wanting to emulate hip hop/rap/other music stars who have begun to get all kinds of tattoos including ones on the face. 

I always think about how these people will look when they become senior citizens and have droopy skin and wrinkles. I don’t imagine they will look so appealing then.

I do differ from Noel a little bit on the jewelry. I don’t like to wear rings or necklaces but I have developed a fondness for nice watches (Rolex, Brietling) style and have begun to collect and wear those over the past few years.

 

 

That’s exactly how it’s always been for me as well. When I was working in the finance/banking industry I loved to get dressed up in a nice suite and look like a million bucks. I'll admit that I always enjoyed the complements that went along with it. Being single at the time I also liked the way the ladies looked when they were well dressed and carried themselves with confidence.

 

There are times when a more relaxed dress code is called for especially when you’re doing some type of manual labor and are prone to getting dirty. In that case I don’t think anyone reasonable would expect you to be in a suit.

I go agree with the dress for success mantra or dress for the job you want, not the one you have.

Many times in my early career new people or customers always assumed I was either the boss or running the place since I was better dressed than most of the other employees, including the actual boss, lol.

Yes, you also brought up a pet peeve of mine.  And I was raised in the age of flower power, peace and love, becoming aware of rock music in the late 60's especially around woodstock and living in the land of Jefferson Airplane, later the Starship.  People then did face painting and so on, but what they did was reversible (except for their strange drugs, look what happened to Ozzie Osborn and Keith Richards). 

Watching someone who is a walking metal detector zombie, lol, I guess that takes some getting used to, but every generation raised from those who raised us goes thru this angst.  Then something happens, you are in a car accident like I am and someone who looks like Richard Jaws Kiel (who my brother knew very well when we lived in Burbank in 66-67), the old Bond fiend then hero, comes into your room and says--hey dude I am your doctor. 

Do you run away screaming or do you just wince, close your eyes, and accept healing from the doctor or nurse (worse female, like the little girl dental child in finding Nemo) and thank God that God made 'em?  I guess I choose the latter no matter what, but I still choose who I get to hang with in heaven, lol, and will let them enjoy their clique....

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