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Hi,

I am P3Dv4 player. I fly both, GA and big airliners (including PMDG777). I have most of the ORBX addons (all global and regions addons + TE Netherlands), a lot of payware big airports and recently I fly a lot in VR using Oculus rift (with PMDG777 too).

My current PC is used to fly and to normal work. I noticed that one yer later after fresh OS install P#D on my PC slows down significantly. I think that is caused by additional software which I use to normal work. That is why I am planning to buy a new PC which will be dedicated only to P3D. The old one will be used for normal work and to run weather engine for P3D on LAN.

I have been reading topics related to the hardware for the last several months and finally, I hope that I have decision 🙂 but I need some advise.

My current PC is: 4790K, ASUS Z87 PLUS. cheap 16GB RAM, ASUS 1080Ti 11GB,  SATA SAMSUNG 128GB SSD for OS, SATA SAMSUNG 1TB SSD for P3D, Thermalright HR-02 - Macho Rev. B

At the beginning I planned to buy i9-7940X as I read in one of threads on this website that size of cache memory matters a lot. Then 9700k and 9900k were developed and based on Rob Ainscough's thread I decided to build my new PC based on 9900K. So this is my new planned setup:

- i9-9900K,

- ASUS ROG Maximus XI Formula,

- SSD Samsung 970 PRO 512GB PCIe x4 NVMe for OS Win 10,

- SSD Samsung 970 EVO 2TB PCIe x4 NVMe for P3D v4,

- ASUS 1080Ti 11GB - at the beginning from old PC then in the next year I will replace it with RTX2080Ti

- NZXT KRAKEN X62 V2,

- RAM 32GB???

- power suply???

Now, I have problem which RAM I should buy.

I was looking for RAM which Rob used in his last PC: G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 4400 (PC4 35200) but it was only 16GB and I would like to put in my PC 32GB. However G.Skill Trident Z RGB, DDR4, 32 GB,CL18 is only 4000MHz,

So, now I am not sure what to do. I think that I need more than 16Gb taking into account all ORBX products and upcoming US west coast in True Earth version + that I am using Oculus a lot. Currently 16GB should be enough but I want keep this new PC for next 5 years.

What, in your opinion, will be the loss in performance going down with RAM from 4400MHz to 4000MHz. If significant then what RAM would you recommend instead?

I have also two additional questions;

- what power supply would you recommend?

- Do you have any suggestion regarding cooling device? Now I use air cooling but I am afraid that with 9900k which I want to overclock it might not be enough and Kraken looks as a good ratio between performance and price?

I am looking forward to any suggestions 🙂


best regards,

Grzegorz

 

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Posted (edited)

No need for faster mems then 4266 on the formula,  frist you néd a cpu with strong imc then bin 5-10 formula before you fine a combo that work at 4400mhz

4400mhz  is doable with 2slots mobo and binned cpu with strong  imc 

I run a good 4000mhz kit at 4266 c16 cr1 or 4133 c15 cr1, this kit performs bettet then my 4600mhz kit 

 

 

Edited by westman

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More than 16GB will go unused for P3D, now and in the foreseeable future...I rarely see even 8GB in use with complex acft and scenery.  Also, a two-DIMM memory solution will generally overclock better and easier than four, and is easier on the IMC.

4000 MHz CAS 18 RAM is 9ns true latency, which is good but not cutting edge.  True latency is CAS level x 2000 divided by the frequency in MHz.  10ns is average consumer-grade RAM, 9ns is good, 8ns is cutting edge right now.

A 850W or larger supply is what I'd shoot for with an overclocked i9 as long as you stick with only one GPU.

I don't think any of the AIO water coolers is going to perform much better than a top-end air cooler like the Noctua NH-D15...to improve on that I'd recommend a good custom water loop with 400+ sq cm of radiator surface dedicated to the CPU.  A 9900K at 5GHz+ is going to press the limits of the better off-the-shelf cooling solutions.

Regards

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1 hour ago, w6kd said:

More than 16GB will go unused for P3D, now and in the foreseeable future...I rarely see even 8GB in use with complex acft and scenery.  Also, a two-DIMM memory solution will generally overclock better and easier than four, and is easier on the IMC.

4000 MHz CAS 18 RAM is 9ns true latency, which is good but not cutting edge.  True latency is CAS level x 2000 divided by the frequency in MHz.  10ns is average consumer-grade RAM, 9ns is good, 8ns is cutting edge right now.

A 850W or larger supply is what I'd shoot for with an overclocked i9 as long as you stick with only one GPU.

I don't think any of the AIO water coolers is going to perform much better than a top-end air cooler like the Noctua NH-D15...to improve on that I'd recommend a good custom water loop with 400+ sq cm of radiator surface dedicated to the CPU.  A 9900K at 5GHz+ is going to press the limits of the better off-the-shelf cooling solutions.

Regards

I disagree on mem amount for P3D.  I have run scenarios that have used up to 20Gb since v4.4...  It all depends on what you use a/c, scenery and settings wise I suppose.  My opinion, (for what its worth), is if youre shooting for a top end rig, get 32gb.... 

Im sure my 32gigs of 3200 cas14 mems fall way short of westmans and others, but I'm content with them  :)

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1 hour ago, kevinfirth said:

I disagree on mem amount for P3D.  I have run scenarios that have used up to 20Gb since v4.4...  It all depends on what you use a/c, scenery and settings wise I suppose.  My opinion, (for what its worth), is if youre shooting for a top end rig, get 32gb....

Can you detail a scenario that results in that kind of RAM usage?  I'd like to try and re-create that here.

Regards

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Thank you all for prompt response.

To clarify some issues, most of the time I fly with almost all settings maxed out. I do not think that P3D will use 32GB RAM by itself. I am just afraid that P3D + OS + Oculus + additional software for P3D (like weather engine, recording software) will use more than 16GB.

So, if I understood correctly it looks that it is better to have 32GB with CAS14 at 3200MHz than CAS18 at 4000MHz:

14x2000/3200 = 8,75ns

18x2000/4000 = 9ns

Is it true? Or slightly bigger latency (9 instead of 8,75ns) and significantly faster clock is better?

What do you think about this RAM:

G.Skill Trident Z RGB, DDR4, 32 GB,4133MHz, CL17 (F4-4133C17Q-32GTZR)

https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-4133c17q-32gtzr

17x2000/4133 = 8,23ns

Regarding power supply, I am planning to have 2x RTS2080Ti next year. Do I need 1000W for this?

And last question. What custom loop cooling you would recommend (in reasonable price 🙂)? Reasonable price for me means good ratio between performance vs price.

Once again thanks for your help.

 

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The lower the true latency, the faster the CPU gets its data.  High frequency with high CAS latency is a marketing ploy to sell unremarkable RAM at remarkable prices.

8.23ns RAM is very fast

Nothing less than 1000W with an overclocked 8-core CPU and 2x 2080Ti GPUs, and 1200W wouldn't be out of the question, especially if there are multiple HDDs, lots of fans, water pump, or other high-current components in the build.

Custom water cooling is a whole different rabbit hole.  A custom loop will entail selection of a pump, radiator(s), fans, shrouds, reservoir, tubing, fittings, clamps, and water block(s) for the CPU and/or GPUs etc.  You're gonna need to do some research on all that.  Put on your black belt and do some Google-Fu!

Regards

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, w6kd said:

Can you detail a scenario that results in that kind of RAM usage?  I'd like to try and re-create that here.

Regards

Complex a/c (ie Q400), Orbx TE-UK Sth, max sliders.  I'll try to record a flight with high mem use but not got a lot of time right now...

(I should have caveated my earlier post with a note that it wasnt normal, but was something I had noticed a few times as I flew with the Rivatuner overlay active to monitor system use.)

Edited by kevinfirth

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, w6kd said:

 

I don't think any of the AIO water coolers is going to perform much better than a top-end air cooler like the Noctua NH-D15...to improve on that I'd recommend a good custom water loop with 400+ sq cm of radiator surface dedicated to the CPU.  A 9900K at 5GHz+ is going to press the limits of the better off-the-shelf cooling solutions.

Regards

The difference to aio 360 rad  and type customloop on  a I9 8core  is not much if any i seen sligtly higher temps with x299 7920x ät 5ghz.

Noctua is Good but not as good as customloop or a high end  AIO 

I have tested my 7920x,8700k ,9900k on customloop D5 560rad and aio 280 and 360 rad i have not see any difference in OC, but customloop have other benefits 

Thats the reason i run my 9900k with AIO 360rad in a fractal R6 chassi cheap and powerful and 5.4ghz 24/7 

Edited by westman
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Posted (edited)

Thank you all for prompt response.

Unfortunatelly, my account on avsim dissapeared today suddenly and I had to create a new one.

I do appreciate all your advises and I have additional questions 🙂

One of the reasons why I am affraid that 16GB of RAM might not be enough is one of the Rob's posts:

 

"If anyone is interested, I've ordered another 16GB (same model 2X8) of G.Skill 4400Mhz RAM ... why you may ask.  Good question, I was actually able to make P3D V4.4 use more than 16GB of RAM, 16.3GB to be exact ... with the following:

Orbx NorCal
Orbx Vector
Default Maule
AS4 + REX SF3D 2048/4096 cloud textures
ChasePlane (clipping adjustments in camera.cfg to stop z-fighting)
UTLive
TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=10  (PR hi res 1024 terrain adjustment)
OPAQUE_SHADOW_TEXTURE_SIZE=8192
TRANSLUCENT_SHADOW_TEXTURE_SIZE=2048
OPAQUE_SHADOW_DRAW_DISTANCE=8000
MAX_TEXTURE_REQUEST_DISTANCE=320000.0000
MaintainSystemCopyOfDeviceTextures=0
ENABLE_MEMORY_OPTIMIZATION=0

SCENERY_DRAW_DISTANCE=64000.000000 ... could have gone ot 128000.000000 which would have consumed more memory

All other graphics settings were maxed out.

When I started paging to my M.2 things got a little slow, so slow the audio even started to stutter.  Had I been using a more complex aircraft like PMDG or FSL I think I would have been well in 17GB RAM usage ... so the moral of this story, 32GB of RAM is in order if one is going to push the P3D V4.4 envelope beyond "normal" UI configurations.

Cheers, Rob."

That is why, most probably I will buy 32GB  but I wonder if number of RAM pices (2x16 or 4x8) makes a difference?

G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 4400 are marked by producer as 16GB category RAM.

Will system work correctly if I install 2 pairs of this memory? Will it work with same performance like with only one pair?

Edited by FoxMulder1982

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Mem QVL is only that the MoBo can handle the XMP but you need a good cpu (very good IMC) when testing mems  they have a very good cpu not overclock it at all only the voltages to the IMC.

to get a stable OC at +5ghz and fast mems with a good cpu with avarge IMC on a 4 slot mobo for max performance and stabitility the memspeed  is 4000-4133mhz .

Rob run his 4400 kit with XMP timings at 4000mhz.

 

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I recently upgraded my memory.

I bought the same 4400 kit Rob used + a new cpu, in case I needed a stronger integrated memory controller.

Long story short: I got a nice memory upgrade but not with the memory kit but rather the new CPU. Yeah, my existing 3200 c14 kit totally blew away the 44000 kit ...the memory upgrade came from the new cpu not the memory kit. I returned the memory kit and kept the cpu.

 

While you probably don't have the resources to bin 5 mobo's, 5 ram kits and 5 cpu's like Westman, you might wanna try a 4400 kit vs a 3200 with two different cpu's ....return the losers.

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It not that easy to OC the mems with good results  , much more easy to OC the CPU, it need skills and hard work,

Funky have showed us here on Avsim whats possible good work man

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Again, thanks all for answers.

So, based on your answers, I started to think that I should focus on RAM with frequency not higher than 4000MHz because I am the beginner in terms of memory overclocking and most probably I will not be able to achieve good results.

As FunknNasty suggested, I have limited budget and RAM 3200/14 is much cheeper 🙂

As usual, I have additional question 🙂

I have read on some overclockers forum that if CPU and MOBO are only dual-chanel it is better to buy only 2 memory modules instead of 4 because it there is higher probability that 2 module setup will work better.

Based on your experience, can you confirm it?

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, westman said:

It not that easy to OC the mems with good results  , much more easy to OC the CPU, it need skills and hard work,

Funky have showed us here on Avsim whats possible good work man

Yeah man .... A big thanks to you for taking the time to contribute here at Avsim

Edited by FunknNasty

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2 hours ago, FoxMulder1982 said:

🙂

as usual, I have additional question 🙂

I have read on some overclockers forum that if CPU and MOBO are only dual-chanel it is better to buy only 2 memory modules instead of 4 because it there is higher probability that 2 module setup will work better.

Based on your experience, can you confirm it?

 

I think the rule of thumb for best performance these days is to populate all four slots with a 4 stick kit, ie. 4x8GB (32gb) for example.  But you can buy and happily use a two stick kit.

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3 hours ago, FunknNasty said:

I think the rule of thumb for best performance these days is to populate all four slots with a 4 stick kit, ie. 4x8GB (32gb) for example.  But you can buy and happily use a two stick kit.

That's exactly the opposite of both my experience and what I'd characterize as the long-standing conventional wisdom.

The higher the number of devices (DIMM modules), the more variability you introduce, the higher the current load on the IMC, and the more possibility that the timing ranges on all the devices won't have enough overlap to find a common set of timings where they all will run reliably (at least not anywhere near the rated overclocked speed).  I've never seen a manufacturer with a top-end 4-DIMM set that was as fast as the same manufacturer's 2-DIMM matched set using the same ICs.

Most manufacturers will tell you not to try and combine two 2-DIMM sets to make a 4-DIMM set...and if you do, don't expect it to run at its advertised (overclocked) settings.

Regards

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2 hours ago, w6kd said:

That's exactly the opposite of both my experience and what I'd characterize as the long-standing conventional wisdom.

The higher the number of devices (DIMM modules), the more variability you introduce, the higher the current load on the IMC, and the more possibility that the timing ranges on all the devices won't have enough overlap to find a common set of timings where they all will run reliably (at least not anywhere near the rated overclocked speed).  I've never seen a manufacturer with a top-end 4-DIMM set that was as fast as the same manufacturer's 2-DIMM matched set using the same ICs.

Most manufacturers will tell you not to try and combine two 2-DIMM sets to make a 4-DIMM set...and if you do, don't expect it to run at its advertised (overclocked) settings.

Regards

Not the pros at Asus. I believe the OP is/or going to use a Maximums XI Formula .....do yourself a favor and look it up over at the Rog forum.

......and I'll refrain from ever making a hardware recommendation on these forums again.

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Posted (edited)

Think i have this up before, its pefectly fine to do your own matching mem modules.

example, its one slot that read the xmp take one stick 3200 c14 and second 3600 c15 start the pc enable xmp it read 3200 c14 then shut down and swap the place of the mems start pc enable xmp it read 3600 c15.

give you an example on my X299 system i have 32gb 4X8gb 2sticks 3600 c15 and 2sticks 3600 c16 tested them and burn two new xmp tables on all 4 sticks one 4000 c16 and second  4133 c16 ( for Z370-390).

binning mems how its done, buy lot of differnt samsung b die for examle 10 kits 3200 10 kits 3600 3kits 4266 then test the modules on by one pick the best 4 sticks then burn yor own xmp ex 4133 c15 this set can be two 3200 one 3600 one 4266.

In short term if you have samsung B-die with the same type of pcb you can place them whatever you want the only thing that matters is the quality of the weakest chip on the memory module.

 

The Latency calc cl x 2000 / ramspeed is only tumb of rule not really accurate we all now that Comand rate 1 vs 2 do a big difference and its more timings that counts sub end tetra for example and even the latency in the IMC

Edited by westman

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8 hours ago, fghdgdfdfgfgf said:

......and I'll refrain from ever making a hardware recommendation on these forums again.

Why?  Just because someone might respectfully present experiences or opinions that differ from yours?

The last thing we need here is to become an echo chamber.

Regards

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9 hours ago, westman said:

binning mems how its done, buy lot of differnt samsung b die for examle 10 kits 3200 10 kits 3600 3kits 4266 then test the modules on by one pick the best 4 sticks then burn yor own xmp ex 4133 c15 this set can be two 3200 one 3600 one 4266.

In short term if you have samsung B-die with the same type of pcb you can place them whatever you want the only thing that matters is the quality of the weakest chip on the memory module.

The Latency calc cl x 2000 / ramspeed is only tumb of rule not really accurate we all now that Comand rate 1 vs 2 do a big difference and its more timings that counts sub end tetra for example and even the latency in the IMC

I'm certain that if one has the ability to sort through a workbench full of motherboards, CPUs, and memory DIMMs, that a lot of magic can be worked by binning and matching and tweaking the best of each.  But for the average system builder that will order parts from an online supplier or buy them at a retail store without the resources/ability to pick and choose, I think it's still better to improve your odds of a good memory overclock by sticking to a factory-matched two-DIMM solution with true latency as a metric for expected performance.

Sure, the true latency approximation is a rule of thumb, but it's a good one for the average builder.  IMC latency will be the same no matter what DIMM you choose if your target system for either is the same mobo+CPU, command rate rarely comes into play with memory overclocks at high memory clock frequencies, and most people are not going to mess with sub-timings at all due to the time required and the significant in-depth knowledge needed to tweak them.

If one is not a competitive benchmarker or a professional system-builder, then a lot of the techniques that you describe to build a cutting-edge system would be out of reach.  The average Joe (or Jill) just wants to get their sim running as well as possible within the range of variability of parts procured through a normal retail sale.

Cheers

 

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19 minutes ago, w6kd said:

I'm certain that if one has the ability to sort through a workbench full of motherboards, CPUs, and memory DIMMs, that a lot of magic can be worked by binning and matching and tweaking the best of each.  But for the average system builder that will order parts from an online supplier or buy them at a retail store without the resources/ability to pick and choose, I think it's still better to improve your odds of a good memory overclock by sticking to a factory-matched two-DIMM solution with true latency as a metric for expected performance.

Sure, the true latency approximation is a rule of thumb, but it's a good one for the average builder.  IMC latency will be the same no matter what DIMM you choose if your target system for either is the same mobo+CPU, command rate rarely comes into play with memory overclocks at high memory clock frequencies, and most people are not going to mess with sub-timings at all due to the time required and the significant in-depth knowledge needed to tweak them.

If one is not a competitive benchmarker or a professional system-builder, then a lot of the techniques that you describe to build a cutting-edge system would be out of reach.  The average Joe (or Jill) just wants to get their sim running as well as possible within the range of variability of parts procured through a normal retail sale.

Cheers

 

Sorry, Bob  i agree with Ken in this , i only tried to explain how it works , but the moderator here seems bash out things that was from the past.

your own words: That's exactly the opposite of both my experience and what I'd characterize as the long-standing conventional wisdom.

Thanks

 

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37 minutes ago, westman said:

Sorry, Bob  i agree with Ken in this , i only tried to explain how it works , but the moderator here seems bash out things that was from the past.

Sorry, but this is not making sense.  No idea who "Ken" is.  And there has been no moderation activity in this thread.  None.

Edit:  OK, Ken, aka "fghdgdfdfgfgf" aka "FunknNasty"

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