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@46 Pilot, so do you get 90% torque in the TO notch? Your bug lists suggests that this isn't the case.

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Posted (edited)

@FDEdev Yes, I do. As I said earlier, I'm already working to post some docs and a tutorial.

@GeeBee I will show you some differences between 42-300 and 42-500 immediately, to see yourself why it is wrong referring to some 42-300 docs when flying the -500 series.

@GeeBee Please, see attached photos.

1. ATR 42-300.

Note the different Condition Levers markings, and also the safety pins for the flaps and flaps markings. There is also a different PEC and EEC controls, more than that, there are -300 series NON-PEC (propeller electronic control)

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7489663

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6262786

2. ATR 42-500

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6797444

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6339119

Edited by 46Pilot

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Posted (edited)

Here is another. Of the 42-500 ........ very very clear that the PLs are in fully forward for takeoff and climb out..... they do put CLs into auto (seems to be a SOP thing).

Do watch this super clear video.... please !

https://youtu.be/YcvvzKXM8Ck

Edited by GeeBee

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, 46Pilot said:

@FDEdev Yes, I do. As I said earlier, I'm already working to post some docs and a tutorial.

@GeeBee I will show you some differences between 42-300 and 42-500 immediately, to see yourself why it is wrong referring to some 42-300 docs when flying the -500 series.

@GeeBee Please, see attached photos.

1. ATR 42-300.

Note the different Condition Levers markings, and also the safety pins for the flaps and flaps markings. There is also a different PEC and EEC controls, more than that, there are -300 series NON-PEC (propeller electronic control)

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7489663

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6262786

2. ATR 42-500

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6797444

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6339119

The first notch in the PL is around 50% - flight idle, the second white line is 68%  - cruise, but there is another detent below the red line that provides 90% - take off.

CLs can be used at 100 % override, or Auto, depending on SOPs.

With the Carenado, the PLs need to be just below the red line, to get 90 % torque for takeoff. This agrees 1005 with the video in my last post.

Edited by GeeBee

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Posted (edited)

??? Where did you see that. Again there is only 1 notch and to me it looks like he advances the PLs until they are in the notch.

I didn't see any PL movement thereafter until the video ends.

Edited by FDEdev

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Posted (edited)

Oh, god...

Please, see this video, it's more clear where the engine control levers are, both the Power Levers and Condition Levers.... It is very clear, Power Levers in the notch (you can see the small white marking) and the Condition Levers in AUTO position....

 

Here's another one:

 

Edited by 46Pilot

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@GeeBee, since you are so fixated on SOPs, there's NO SOP which says to advances the PL fully for a normal take off.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The first notch in the PL is around 50% - flight idle, the second white line is 68%  - cruise, but there is another detent below the red line that provides 90% - take off.

CLs can be used at 100 % override, or Auto, depending on SOPs.

With the Carenado, the PLs need to be just below the red line, to get 90 % torque for takeoff. This agrees 1005 with the video in my last post.

Take it easy, please.

"The first notch in the PL is around 50% - flight idle" - This is NOT a notch. It's clear that you haven't undestood what is the notch.....

"the second white line is 68%  - cruise" - THIS is the notch, but it is NOT for cruise only. You put the levers in the notch at the beginning of takeoff roll and leave them there until descend, if there is no parameter going over the limits.

"there is another detent below the red line that provides 90% - take off." - Are you kidding me?

"CLs can be used at 100 % override, or Auto, depending on SOPs." - Please, show me the respective SOP !!

NOTE: The values of the levers are not in %, but degrees, I've have already told this in the previous posts.... The values of the engine indicators (torque, NP, NH-NL) are in percent.

 

Edited by 46Pilot

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Posted (edited)

Ok.... explain this....

https://youtu.be/YcvvzKXM8Ck

And there are notches..... as I move my throttle it clicks in at flight idle.... and then again at the 68% (T/O) position, and another at around 90%. The last is the only position that provides 100% torque for takeoff.

This 90% point is what they use in the video.

The theory is the TO notch is all you need and the PM control switch is then used for phase of flight .... this worked perfectly in the Flight1 ATR (for FSX), but does not work properly in the Carenado.

 

Edited by GeeBee

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Posted (edited)

Just watched the video .... agreed, they are in to TO notch.

But watch my link.... way more  forward, around 90%.

Maybe Carenado watched 'my video' ! 🤣🤣🤣

Whatever the theory, or what it should be, the Carenado is simply not working correctly. The TO notch, and TO set on the PM dial, only gives 68% torque.

🤔🤔🤔

Edited by GeeBee

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FDEdev said:

@GeeBee, since you are so fixated on SOPs, there's NO SOP which says to advances the PL fully for a normal take off.

Not fixated.... mentioned it as a possible reason why both are seen in different RW videos.

Also, posts on other forums from self proclaimed RW pilots, have stated they use 100% override for CLs.

Why would I make this up ?

I have been researching it for a week. SOPs do differ. Everyone knows that, for just about every aircraft ever flown commercially.

Watch the videos linked to above.... 1 video shows it at 100%, 2 show the CLs at Auto.

Two videos show the PLs at 98%, only one at the TO (68%) point.

Clearly they differ.

Edited by GeeBee

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Posted (edited)

Feels like I'm wasting my time, sorry for saying this...

Please, see attached photo, print screen from my sim.

<a href="https://ibb.co/8xHC9ZD"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/8xHC9ZD/atr-90.png" alt="atr-90" border="0"></a>

Make sure the people from that forum are not talking about the 42-300 or 72-200 series, please, and stop trying to convince us that you are wright. It makes no logic to put in 100% OVRD, when the AUTO mode with PWR MGT does the same thing. 

I'm out of this, cannot continue anymore. If you want to listen to what I'm telling you, ok, if not, fly the ATR in the sim in whatever configuration you want and live with that.

Edited by 46Pilot

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Not fixated.... mentioned it as a possible reason why both are seen in different RW videos.

Also, posts on other forums from self proclaimed RW pilots, have stated they use 100% override for CLs.

Why would I make this up ?

Two videos show the PLs at 98%, only one at the TO (68%) point.

I do get the impression that you are mixing up PL, CL and torque. Again, if the CLs are in AUTO or at max/full forward doesn't make any difference.

Having the PLs further forward than at the TO notch (90%) does make a big difference and haven't even found any performance tables for takeoff performance with the PLs at more then 90%, forward of the TO notch.

Can you point me to the points where you can clearly see 98% and 68% torque?  None of them is a TO setting!

Edited by FDEdev

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Alex,

your time isn't wasted as I want to know from a real world ATR pilot how this AC should be managed.

So keep on with your postings.

Cheers,

Michael

 

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https://youtu.be/kFur1ZlCwOg

 

Another 42-500 --  PLs both pushed well aft of the 68% TO notch......

So that's 2 in an hour.

Clearly SOPs differ wildly. Both PLs and CLs can be set differently for takeoff. Possibly depends on conditions, maybe on weight.

Bottom line though: if it is meant in theory for the TO position to give 90-100% torque, as it was in the Flight1 ATR 72-500, then it is NOT modelled correctly in the Carenado.

RW videos show just about every combination of SOPs... NOW I am getting obsessed with SOPs !

But SOPs are irrelevant. What matters is what is meant to happen with PLs in TO notch and dial switched to TO.

My Carenado gives 68% power.... not enough for full power take off and climb. Which I believe, is why this thread was started !

 

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5 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

I do get the impression that you are mixing up PL, CL and torque. Again, if the CLs are in AUTO or at max/full forward doesn't make any difference.

Having the PLs further forward than at the TO notch (90%) does make a big difference and haven't even found any performance tables for takeoff performance with the PLs at more then 90%, forward of the TO notch.

Can you point me to the points where you can clearly see 98% and 68% torque?  None of them is a TO setting!

Woah horsey .... the TO notch is NOT 90%. Watch the videos.

The TO notch is around the 68% mark.

It is not I, that is mixing stuff up.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Woah horsey .... the TO notch is NOT 90%. Watch the videos.

The TO notch is around the 68% mark.

It is not I, that is mixing stuff up.

 

Whaaaaaaaat????

Talking for so much time about this and you say this?????

Man, I will tell you for the LAST time.

Power levers in the NOTCH (68 degrees, not percent, DEGREES !!!!! watch the marking at the lever base !!!), TORQUE Indicator is 90 PERCENT ! 

Have you ever, ever read my previous post where I've described this??

See this screen shot from my sim, it has some red squares to make it visible and obvious for you!

POWER LEVER NOTCH (white marking, 68 degrees), CONDITION LEVERS AUTO, TORQUE INDICATOR 90% !

atr-90.png

Edited by 46Pilot

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

https://youtu.be/kFur1ZlCwOg

Another 42-500 --  PLs both pushed well aft of the 68% TO notch……

You must be blind, the PLs a clearly in the TO notch = 90% torque in your link.

In the video you can clearly see the pointers from the torque gauge at the beginning of the yellow range = 90%.

For some inexplainable reason in your ATR this means 68% torque and for 46Pilot the same position results in 90% torque.

I have to admit that I don't know why 46Pilot started to use PL angles since this really confuses things and there are no cockpit and/or instrument markings which mention PL degrees.

The CLs in AUTO means 42 degrees but he never uses degrees with the CLs.

Edited by FDEdev

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@GeeBee in your last video, Ordinary day at office - ATR 42-500, at 00:45 it is very clear that the Power Levers (left set of levers from the quadrant) are in the notch position, small white mark, they are not "pushed well aft of the 68% TO notch" (PS: I'm saying again, the unit of measurement is not % !!!!, it seems you are not reading my posts at all ! )

OK, let's try something else.....

See this photo. The power lever is at Ground Idle. At the base of the power lever, there is a small white triangle, attached to the lever. Do you see it? Good ( I hope ). Now, you read the position of the lever where that small triangle is, not anything else, just where the small triangle is. 

power-lever.png

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FDEdev said:

I have to admit that I don't know why 46Pilot started to use PL angles since this really confuses things and there are no cockpit and/or instrument markings which mention PL degrees

Yeah, I know it' confusing, but this is the way the ATR is measuring. Degrees of power lever deflection and percent of torque on the indicators... it' their logic...

Edited by 46Pilot

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For example, this quote from FCOM System Description, ATPCS arming conditions:

ATPCS means Automatic Take-off Power Control System.
In case of an engine failure during takeoff the ATPCS provides uptrimmed power on the remaining engine and automatically feathers the failed engine.
This feature enables to reduce takeoff power for both engines by approximately 10% without affecting takeoff performance

The ATPCS systems has two modes dependant which arming conditions are fulfilled:

Uptrim and auto feathering functions armed:

  • PWR MGT Selector TO
  • ATPCS pushbutton ON
  • Both Power Levers above 49°
  • Both torques above 46%
  • Aircraft on ground

Auto feathering function armed:

  • PWR MGT Selector TO
  • ATPCS pushbutton ON
  • Both Power Levers above 49°
  • Both torques above 46%
  • Aircraft in flight

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Hello.

Sorted it.

I understand how it should work, but I couldn't get it to automate the torque while in the Notch.

I now know why and apologise for the waste of time .... although I have learned a lot in the course of it !

My controller / FSUIPC settings were in conflict. FSUIPC was set to control the throttles, but it appears that updating to P3D v4.5, my controls were reset.

Bottom line -- it was constantly going in and out of 'the notch', although it was not noticeable. As such, it was reading around 68 % all the time, but wasn't actually sitting where it should be.

Now I have cleared the conflict and created a bit of deadzone on my Saitek levers, it goes into the notch, and " Lo and behold ", the torque is now being controlled correctly using the power management dial.

🐑

 

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3 hours ago, 46Pilot said:

For example, this quote from FCOM System Description, ATPCS arming conditions:

I have no idea why you are quoting these rather useless numbers. They aren't painted onto the pedestal and hence how would know when these trigger angles are being reached while flying the ATR?  

It's additional technical info, but they are definitely not needed to operate the ATR. These numbers are even less useful for armchair pilots, rather the contrary, more confusing than helpful as had been demonstrated 😉

@GeeBee, glad you sorted it out and that you can enjoy the ATR now 🙂

 

 

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