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Maybe Im missing something, but she seems so slow to climb! 

 

Power Mode into Climb

Levers in auto

VS Engaged

 

Seems to take an age to get into cruise 

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Posted (edited)

The ATR usually climbs with 1000-1500 FPM, depending on weight or meteo conditions. Also, I recommend to use IAS mode while climbing and VS in descend.

Edited by 46Pilot
Added a recommendation
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38 minutes ago, 46Pilot said:

The ATR usually climbs with 1000-1500 FPM, depending on weight or meteo conditions. Also, I recommend to use IAS mode while climbing and VS in descend.

That would make more sense to use IAS while climbing. Shall certainly give that a try

 

Thank you

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3 hours ago, astro_liam said:

Maybe Im missing something, but she seems so slow to climb! 

 

Power Mode into Climb

Levers in auto

VS Engaged

 

Seems to take an age to get into cruise 

I haven't verified yet but the Auto CL power settings may be wrong as in it's too low.   I def agree use IAS to climb (first Carenado plane I think I've ever recommended that for LOL)  You may have to also wait until you reach your cruise altitude to pull them back to Auto (if you do at all)......I'm currently looking into the feasibility of doing a mod with this corrected along with integrating hotel mode and possibly a smaller VAS footprint....However, with my CJ2+ mod, and possibly up coming Phenom 100 mod, I think I may be reaching mod saturation :D.......we'll see.

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Posted (edited)

No, you will use Condition Levers in AUTO for all phases of flight and set the engine parameters using PWR MGT rotary selector. CL will be in 100 OVRD (full forward) position only for some abnormal situations (severe icing, TCAS RA, Single Engine Operation in flight etc). Same for Power Levers, in normal situation, the most forward position is the Notch Position (small white arc ~65-68 degrees). There are two more positions, RAMP and WALL, but these are to be used only in abnormal or emergency situations.

Edited by 46Pilot
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17 minutes ago, 46Pilot said:

No, you will use Condition Levers in AUTO for all phases of flight and set the engine parameters using PWR MGT rotary selector. CL will be in 100 OVRD (full forward) position only for some abnormal situations (severe icing, TCAS RA, Single Engine Operation in flight etc). Same for Power Levers, in normal situation, the most forward position is the Notch Position (small white arc ~65-68 degrees). There are two more positions, RAMP and WALL, but these are to be used only in abnormal or emergency situations.

Excellent! Thank you, I wasn't to sure on the position of the condition levers for which phase of flight so that is a big help.

 

They really should have included a tutorial flight

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, 46Pilot said:

No, you will use Condition Levers in AUTO for all phases of flight and set the engine parameters using PWR MGT rotary selector. CL will be in 100 OVRD (full forward) position only for some abnormal situations (severe icing, TCAS RA, Single Engine Operation in flight etc). Same for Power Levers, in normal situation, the most forward position is the Notch Position (small white arc ~65-68 degrees). There are two more positions, RAMP and WALL, but these are to be used only in abnormal or emergency situations.

Excellent 🍻.  Thanks for the correction.  Im totally new to the ATR so its all a learning curve for me.  So with the CLs set to auto and using the power management for TO, CLB and CRZ settings would you say the prop rpms and power settings at each power management setting are modeled correctly?  Also can you go more in depth with the PL settings and where to set them in relation to the detents at the different phases of flight?????  Maybe start with what each detent is.  Thanks!!!

Edited by Novej757
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Power Levers:

- Ground Idle (GI) - to be used only on ground, for taxi purposes.

- Flight Idle (FI) - once airborne, you cannot go lower than this position - it is blocked anyway by the idle gate and is prohibited to override this protection.

- Notch - Normal position of the PL at takeoff.

- Ramp - This position is to be used in some abnormal situations (e.g. go around)

- Wall - To be used only in emergency - to obtain the maximum possible power from the engines - (to get away from a severe windshear situation or imminent EGPWS scenario).

 

Condition Levers:

- Fuel Shutoff (Fuel SO) - Engines are stopped, no fuel delivered to the engines, even with started engaged.

- Feather (FTR) - after starter engaged, between 10% and 19% NH (depending on the residual ITT), you move the CL from Fuel SO to FTR. The engine is started, but the propeller blades are feathered, so you will have no thrust from the engine. Only DC power and air to condition the cabin - This is the case when you use the Hotel Mode, the engine is started, but due to engagement of the propeller brake, the propeller is not spinning.

NOTE:

1. This is possible only for No. 2 engine. If you don't have prop brake installed / unserviceable, or will start No.1 engine, you will still have DC electrical power and Air to cool / warm the cabin, but the propeller with spin at low RPM.

2. When you shutdown the engines, you have to put the CL in FTR position for at least 20 seconds or NP below 15%, to allow the engine to reduce the RPMs and for the blades to feather, before shuting down the engine no.1, or before engaging the prop brake, to avoid burning the brake.

- AUTO - The engine will increase the RPM to nominal RPM and the electronic systems (PEC - Propeller Electronic Control / EEC - Engine Electronic Control) will take of the rest.

- 100 OVRD (Override) - The NP (propeller rotation) will be at 100%. This is to be set in some situations like, for example, a severe icing conditions, stall recovery etc.

 

Power Management Rotary Selector (PWR MGT):

- Take Off (TO)

- Maximum Continuous Thrust (MCT)

- Climb (CLB)

- Cruise (CRZ)

 

After start, for taxi, you will have CL in AUTO, PL in Ground Idle, PWR MGT rotary selector on TO.

For takeoff, you advance the PL to the Notch position and leave them there. (PL Notch - CL AUTO - PWR MGT TO).

After takeoff, at acceleration altitude, all you have to do is to increase the airspeed and select PWR MGT to CLB position, leaving the PL in the notch and CL on AUTO. For the ATR 42, climb speed is 160 kts, and for ATR 72 is 170 kts.

At cruise, you only set the PWR MGT to CRZ and that's all. For fuel saving purposes, or if the engines are a little bit worn out, you can reduce the power levers from the notch position a little bit, either to set the fuel flow to 300 kg/engine, or to lower the ITT. Normally, the ATR burns aprox. 700 kg of fuel in total in the first hour of flight and 600 afterwards.

 

If the engine parameters are all good, once you advance the PL to the notch at the start of takeoff roll, until top of descend, you don't have to get them out of the notch. When you start the descend, you will have to retard them to avoid overspeed scenario. Usually, in descend, if no turbulence encountered or ATC restrictions, the IAS is 230-235 kts or 10 kts below VMO/MMO limit (hatched white and red needle), if it's lower than 235 kts. The only thing you have to touch to control the engine power is the PWR MGT rotary selector, according to the flight phases.

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29 minutes ago, 46Pilot said:

Power Levers:

- Ground Idle (GI) - to be used only on ground, for taxi purposes.

- Flight Idle (FI) - once airborne, you cannot go lower than this position - it is blocked anyway by the idle gate and is prohibited to override this protection.

- Notch - Normal position of the PL at takeoff.

- Ramp - This position is to be used in some abnormal situations (e.g. go around)

- Wall - To be used only in emergency - to obtain the maximum possible power from the engines - (to get away from a severe windshear situation or imminent EGPWS scenario).

 

Condition Levers:

- Fuel Shutoff (Fuel SO) - Engines are stopped, no fuel delivered to the engines, even with started engaged.

- Feather (FTR) - after starter engaged, between 10% and 19% NH (depending on the residual ITT), you move the CL from Fuel SO to FTR. The engine is started, but the propeller blades are feathered, so you will have no thrust from the engine. Only DC power and air to condition the cabin - This is the case when you use the Hotel Mode, the engine is started, but due to engagement of the propeller brake, the propeller is not spinning.

NOTE:

1. This is possible only for No. 2 engine. If you don't have prop brake installed / unserviceable, or will start No.1 engine, you will still have DC electrical power and Air to cool / warm the cabin, but the propeller with spin at low RPM.

2. When you shutdown the engines, you have to put the CL in FTR position for at least 20 seconds or NP below 15%, to allow the engine to reduce the RPMs and for the blades to feather, before shuting down the engine no.1, or before engaging the prop brake, to avoid burning the brake.

- AUTO - The engine will increase the RPM to nominal RPM and the electronic systems (PEC - Propeller Electronic Control / EEC - Engine Electronic Control) will take of the rest.

- 100 OVRD (Override) - The NP (propeller rotation) will be at 100%. This is to be set in some situations like, for example, a severe icing conditions, stall recovery etc.

 

Power Management Rotary Selector (PWR MGT):

- Take Off (TO)

- Maximum Continuous Thrust (MCT)

- Climb (CLB)

- Cruise (CRZ)

 

After start, for taxi, you will have CL in AUTO, PL in Ground Idle, PWR MGT rotary selector on TO.

For takeoff, you advance the PL to the Notch position and leave them there. (PL Notch - CL AUTO - PWR MGT TO).

After takeoff, at acceleration altitude, all you have to do is to increase the airspeed and select PWR MGT to CLB position, leaving the PL in the notch and CL on AUTO. For the ATR 42, climb speed is 160 kts, and for ATR 72 is 170 kts.

At cruise, you only set the PWR MGT to CRZ and that's all. For fuel saving purposes, or if the engines are a little bit worn out, you can reduce the power levers from the notch position a little bit, either to set the fuel flow to 300 kg/engine, or to lower the ITT. Normally, the ATR burns aprox. 700 kg of fuel in total in the first hour of flight and 600 afterwards.

 

If the engine parameters are all good, once you advance the PL to the notch at the start of takeoff roll, until top of descend, you don't have to get them out of the notch. When you start the descend, you will have to retard them to avoid overspeed scenario. Usually, in descend, if no turbulence encountered or ATC restrictions, the IAS is 230-235 kts or 10 kts below VMO/MMO limit (hatched white and red needle), if it's lower than 235 kts. The only thing you have to touch to control the engine power is the PWR MGT rotary selector, according to the flight phases.

Cant thank you enough for this detail explanation! Thank you very much! 

 

 

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3 hours ago, 46Pilot said:

Power Levers:

- Ground Idle (GI) - to be used only on ground, for taxi purposes.

- Flight Idle (FI) - once airborne, you cannot go lower than this position - it is blocked anyway by the idle gate and is prohibited to override this protection.

- Notch - Normal position of the PL at takeoff.

- Ramp - This position is to be used in some abnormal situations (e.g. go around)

- Wall - To be used only in emergency - to obtain the maximum possible power from the engines - (to get away from a severe windshear situation or imminent EGPWS scenario).

 

Condition Levers:

- Fuel Shutoff (Fuel SO) - Engines are stopped, no fuel delivered to the engines, even with started engaged.

- Feather (FTR) - after starter engaged, between 10% and 19% NH (depending on the residual ITT), you move the CL from Fuel SO to FTR. The engine is started, but the propeller blades are feathered, so you will have no thrust from the engine. Only DC power and air to condition the cabin - This is the case when you use the Hotel Mode, the engine is started, but due to engagement of the propeller brake, the propeller is not spinning.

NOTE:

1. This is possible only for No. 2 engine. If you don't have prop brake installed / unserviceable, or will start No.1 engine, you will still have DC electrical power and Air to cool / warm the cabin, but the propeller with spin at low RPM.

2. When you shutdown the engines, you have to put the CL in FTR position for at least 20 seconds or NP below 15%, to allow the engine to reduce the RPMs and for the blades to feather, before shuting down the engine no.1, or before engaging the prop brake, to avoid burning the brake.

- AUTO - The engine will increase the RPM to nominal RPM and the electronic systems (PEC - Propeller Electronic Control / EEC - Engine Electronic Control) will take of the rest.

- 100 OVRD (Override) - The NP (propeller rotation) will be at 100%. This is to be set in some situations like, for example, a severe icing conditions, stall recovery etc.

 

Power Management Rotary Selector (PWR MGT):

- Take Off (TO)

- Maximum Continuous Thrust (MCT)

- Climb (CLB)

- Cruise (CRZ)

 

After start, for taxi, you will have CL in AUTO, PL in Ground Idle, PWR MGT rotary selector on TO.

For takeoff, you advance the PL to the Notch position and leave them there. (PL Notch - CL AUTO - PWR MGT TO).

After takeoff, at acceleration altitude, all you have to do is to increase the airspeed and select PWR MGT to CLB position, leaving the PL in the notch and CL on AUTO. For the ATR 42, climb speed is 160 kts, and for ATR 72 is 170 kts.

At cruise, you only set the PWR MGT to CRZ and that's all. For fuel saving purposes, or if the engines are a little bit worn out, you can reduce the power levers from the notch position a little bit, either to set the fuel flow to 300 kg/engine, or to lower the ITT. Normally, the ATR burns aprox. 700 kg of fuel in total in the first hour of flight and 600 afterwards.

 

If the engine parameters are all good, once you advance the PL to the notch at the start of takeoff roll, until top of descend, you don't have to get them out of the notch. When you start the descend, you will have to retard them to avoid overspeed scenario. Usually, in descend, if no turbulence encountered or ATC restrictions, the IAS is 230-235 kts or 10 kts below VMO/MMO limit (hatched white and red needle), if it's lower than 235 kts. The only thing you have to touch to control the engine power is the PWR MGT rotary selector, according to the flight phases.

Thanks for the explanation. What would Carenado do without the after sales support provided by its customers (lol)! With the PL in the notch position (white mark), CL at auto and PWR MGT set to T/O, I'm only getting 60% torque at take off. Given what you've described above, I'm assuming this is a fault of the Carenado modelling and not normal, is that correct?

 

Cheers.

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Posted (edited)

@mdreyer, 60% is way too low and I severely doubt that the white marks on the Carenado ATR even remotely match the RW power position and I'm pretty sure that ramp and wall aren't modelled.

I'd expect that the 'notch' PL position is simply fully forward.

However, these are the actual maximum values you should see at S.L. and at ISA conditions.

T/O = 90% torque, 100% prop

MCT & GA = 100% torque, 100% prop

CLB = 109.8% torque, 82% prop

CRZ = 108.3% torque, 82% prop 

 

Edited by FDEdev
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57 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

@mdreyer, 60% is way too low and I severely doubt that the white marks on the Carenado ATR even remotely match the RW power position and I'm pretty sure that ramp and wall aren't modelled.

I'd expect that the 'notch' PL position is simply fully forward.

However, these are the actual maximum values you should see at S.L. and at ISA conditions.

T/O = 90% torque, 100% prop

MCT & GA = 100% torque, 100% prop

CLB = 109.8% torque, 82% prop

CRZ = 108.3% torque, 82% prop 

 

Thanks - yep, I did some reading up and those are the figures we should see. I'm also not seeing any change in torque when changing on the power management system either. They (Carenado) did model a similar system on the Fokker 50 quite well, so I don't know why they haven't on this.

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Posted (edited)

No, the engine parameters are correctly simulated. Check the status of the systems, the ATR is "dark cockpit" concept, you don't have to have any light on during normal ops. Make sure gust lock is released, PEC and EEC are ON, CL on AUTO, PWR MGT set on TO.

Edited by 46Pilot

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So, at which PL position (pwr management TO) do you get 90% torque? At the pedestal notch position/marking or at full throttle?

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I have already told this many times, in the notch, small white arc ~65-68 degrees..

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Posted (edited)

This means that wall and ramp are simulated as well? That's great news.

Btw, concerning the IAS mode for climb, are you talking about the Carenado ATR or RW ATR ops?

 

Edited by FDEdev

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Posted (edited)

Hey @46Pilot great explanation thank you very much.  May I ask in what situation would you use MCT.  I find that she can still overspeed with everything set for cruise (PL white notch, CL Auto, Power management CRZ)....However if I switch to MCT she'll hold a steady cruise speed for me. Is this an allowed use for it?

 

Edited by Novej757

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Posted (edited)

Hi everyone,

@FDEdev don't you want to fly the ATR in the sim like in the real life?

@Novej757 MCT is not used in normal operation, only in some abnormal cases, where the QRH tell you to do so. With PL in the notch, CL on AUTO, PWR MGT on CRZ is possible to go over the maximum speed in real life if you fly at low altitudes. From what I've seen, if you fly at FL150 or 160, you reach a speed of 220 kts, so there are high chances of going over if a lower altitude is selected. The ATR 42 is most comfortable at FL180, where it has the biggest TAS and we tend to look for this FL if possible. Another good thing is we receive a lots of shortcuts, because there are few aircraft flying so low 😄

Edited by 46Pilot
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, 46Pilot said:

 

@FDEdev don't you want to fly the ATR in the sim like in the real life?

? Don't understand this question. Do you fly the ATR 42 IRL? I was asking because I haven't come across any airplane IRL which does a nice climb/descent in speed mode due to the constant VS/pitch changes, and/or hunting to keep the set IAS. It's usually not very convenient for the passengers.

I don't understand why you climb in speed mode and descend in VS mode.

@Novej757, MCT is usually used in the single engine case where you need the highest climb performance.

Notice that prop RPM is at 100% in this case and hence a very low prop blade pitch, a setting that's most effective at low speed.

 

Edited by FDEdev
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Yes, I do. It is safer and better to climb using IAS mode. Indeed, the aircraft will hunt the selected speed, but instead there's no worry about stalling the airplane. If you would be using the VS to climb, the airplane will maintain the respective VS regardless of the speed. There are some occasions where we use VS for climbing, for example a desired shallow climb (cruise climb, high speed climb) when running behind the schedule.

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1 hour ago, 46Pilot said:

Hi everyone,

@FDEdev don't you want to fly the ATR in the sim like in the real life?

@Novej757 MCT is not used in normal operation, only in some abnormal cases, where the QRH tell you to do so. With PL in the notch, CL on AUTO, PWR MGT on CRZ is possible to go over the maximum speed in real life if you fly at low altitudes. From what I've seen, if you fly at FL150 or 160, you reach a speed of 220 kts, so there are high chances of going over if a lower altitude is selected. The ATR 42 is most comfortable at FL180, where it has the biggest TAS and we tend to look for this FL if possible. Another good thing is we receive a lots of shortcuts, because there are few aircraft flying so low 😄

Ahhh that would explain it flying between ATL and BHM i only got up to 14000....So I need to climb a little higher and no MCT got it!

This plane is surprisingly done very well.....Now if we can get Hotel mode modeled 😳

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Hotel mode is modeled, check this topic, I've already explained what's needed for the prop brake to be engaged.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 46Pilot said:

It is safer and better to climb using IAS mode. Indeed, the aircraft will hunt the selected speed, but instead there's no worry about stalling the airplane. If you would be using the VS to climb, the airplane will maintain the respective VS regardless of the speed. 

I also used to fly Dash7s and 8s for a company for a few years which had the weird 'logic' that climbing in VS isn't 'safe'.

Fact is that if you aren't flying cargo IAS mode is not passenger minded and the plane can stall in speed mode in turbulent weather as well 😉

 

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Posted (edited)

I will not start a discussion based on your reply, but you are wrong. Climbing speed is way above stalling speed. If it is really turbulent, you shouldn't be there, in first place. Second, if you consider that the autopilot cannot maintain a safe range of speed, you can choose to climb in pitch mode until turbulence become less bumpy. In icing condition, IAS mode is the only one to be used for climbing.

Edited by 46Pilot

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7 minutes ago, 46Pilot said:

Climbing speed is way above stalling speed. If it is really turbulent, you shouldn't be there, in first place. Second, if you consider that the autopilot cannot maintain a safe range of speed, you can choose to climb in pitch mode until turbulence become less bumpy. In icing condition, IAS mode is the only one to be used for climbing.

What do you mean with 'If it is really turbulent, you shouldn't be there, in first place'. That's a strange and dangerously unrealistic POV. 

I haven't met a pilot who can precisely forecast turbulence?!?

Pitch mode is better or more 'safe' than VS? Since when? In both cases your ATR will stall if you maintain the same pitch/VS for too long.

I've even had a heavy 767 almost stall in FLCH mode during climb. As an airline pilot you simply have to constantly monitor what your airplane is doing when the AP is flying and you have take over yourself when necessary, regardless in which mode the AP is in.

 

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