Who stayed on 4.3 and why?

[virtuali 4,421]

4 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

@virtuali

You seem to have missed the Question about GSXv2 update.

Will it be compatible with W7? or W10 only?

With KORDv2 also be compatible with W7?  or W10 only?

Thank you.

I haven't missed it, it's just that, for some reason, the "quote" button on your other post didn't work. This one does...

As I've said so many times, we haven't done anything *intentionally* to cause problems to Windows 7.

It's possible that, our reliance on the DirectX-related functions of the sim might have caused this, since DX11 is not 100% complete under Windows 7 and drivers will have issues with it, since to fully support, you need at least Windows 8 drivers ( see the explanation on the article I linked from Microsoft about X11 and Windows 7 ).

This, right now, seems to cause the crash on exit, but we don't  have the slightest idea if this will become any different on the next update. It might stay the same (just a crash on exit, which is harmless, since the OS would always reclaim memory from closed apps anyway), or it might be worse. No way of knowing, since nobody at FSDT and none of our testers ( we have about 30 testers ) still uses Windows 7!

The only thing I can say, is the PBR updpate for GSX L2 will rely even *more* on DirectX, for the huge benefits in ease of customization, speed of loading (thanks to the hugely reduced number of installed repaints) and flexibility, but how this would affect Windows 7 compatibility, I can't say.

KORD V2 will use DirectX for the working information panels on the outside of the gates, which is one of the most recognizable O'Hare features, and to show working arrival/departures panels in the inside of the terminal. They'll use exactly the same calls as GSX PBR update so, they will either both work with WIndows 7 or not. 

But of course, that's why we have a Trial version for...

[CFIJose 5,485]

20 minutes ago, virtuali said:

That's because we tuned KJFK area range to be exactly like that, in order not to have both KLGA and KFJK. While on FSX this was required to prevent OOMs, on P3D "just" because you have "infinite" memory, doesn't mean fps doesn't matter anymore. In fact, BECAUSE you have "infinite" memory, the possible fps issues are even more pressing than before and the NYC area is a known fps pit, that's why the scenery has been optimized to be like that.

 

If you mean dynamic lightning, then yes, it's obviously done for performance reasons because, when KCLT came out, P3D 4.0 was just being released, and the DL performance impact was tragic, so we had to do extra steps to use a very sophisticated custom LOD that, instead of "just" checking the radius of an object, takes into account a polygon perimeter, so we were able to precisely turn off DL on the opposite side of the terminal you are located because, most of the DL was required to lit AI and your airplane on gate. Because the scenery was *designed* to not rely on DL, just to use DL as an additional effect.

KORD V2, for example, is *designed* to RELY on DL,since it's a 100% native P3D4 scenery that was never supposed to be used on FSX, so we have an option there, to have "optimized DL" ( like KCLT ), or "full DL", so everything will be lit at the same time. Yes, it has an fps impact, of course, but you can choose.

 

The instant replay problem is a problem of the sim, which doesn't support Simobjects created programmatically during a replay.

This USED to be a problem of our sceneries only, but only because we were the first to use Simobjects to create scenery, because they allows way more flexibility than plain .BGLs. Being the first doing something, usually comes with some baggage and growing pains.

However, now that so many sceneries out there use Simobjects too (usually with SODE), we can only hope people will finally realize this wasn't an FSDT problem, since every scenery using SODE will have all its objects ( jetways, most commonly ), disappearing during instant reply as well.

 

 

The approach is what makes all these things possible. 

We don't used our software "just because". We used it because it was *necessary*. In KORD V2, being our first 100% P3D4 scenery which is not hampered by having to be compatible with FSX, we'll use plain standard .BGL AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, leaving the usage of Simobjects only when absolutely required, since a native P3D4 .BGL can do by itself lots of things which weren't possible in FSX, thanks to Lua scripting, for example.

And no, just "recompiling" a scenery originally made for FSX with the P3D SDK doesn't give you magical improvements, because you DESIGN a scenery to be made in a certain way if you need to take into account backward compatibility or not.

An example ?

KMEM ground textures *are* compiled with the P3D SDK, which improves some things. But they are still made following the FSX concept of multi-layered polygons to have base ground detail + fine details, since we couldn't possibly redo the whole scenery just for P3D. It's a scenery that was designed to work in FSX, so it will stay like that, and recompiling with the P3D SDK (and only the ground polygons), it's really the best we can do without doing a remake. The same is valid for KCLT and KSDF.

KORD V2, instead, uses a P3D4-exclusive method, which obtain the same effect ( base low res ground + hires details ) with NO multi-layers polygons, which result in the number of ground polygons HALVED compared to the same scenery, but made to work in FSX too. Not having multi-layer polygons not only solves any possible ground flickering issues caused by polygons so close to each other, but they also run *faster*, and not just because there 50% less, but because the alpha blending between the two "layers" (which are not layers anymore), happens on a single shader pass, instead of having to draw the two layers separately with two different shaders, as it was in FSX.

 

The era of "simple" airports has ended. Today, many of the newest release use some kind of software module to manage extra features, usually SODE. Some are using it just for the jetways, others more extensively.

Do you want to go back to static jetways or bugged animated jetways ? Do you want to go back to fake Docking systems ? On P3D4, which has an extensive SDK that allows developers to do so much more ? This is called competition and progress.

 

OK Umberto, but other devs like FlyTampa have no issue adding amazing effects, animations, and still have good fps without OMM errors in v4. Take FT KLAS as an example. I see the city and airport miles away with no fps or fear of an OOM error. Huge city and airport with no problems.

BTW, FPS in not an issue once KJFK loads. I can turn around and fly back to AS Manhattan, over DD KLGA, and back to KJFK and fps is acceptable and smooth. I don't want to go back, I hope you move forward and allow users of P3D v4 the option to see the airport from miles away.

Also, please add the option to see DL at KCLT during dusk. It's annoying to approach such a beautiful rendition of an airport at dusk and not see the lighting. Your airports are outstanding and I want to be able to enjoy them.

Thank you!

[Nyxx 6,993]

 

 

1

17 minutes ago, virtuali said:

The only thing I can say, is the PBR updpate for GSX L2 will rely even *more* on DirectX, for the huge benefits in ease of customization, speed of loading (thanks to the hugely reduced number of installed repaints) and flexibility, but how this would affect Windows 7 compatibility, I can't say.

So we ill have to wait for people in the community to see if it works or not. Since you "can't"say!

We have a saying in the UK an old one "Can't" means "won't" and won't mean I "don't want to."

[virtuali 4,421]

14 minutes ago, DJJose said:

OK Umberto, but other devs like FlyTampa have no issue adding amazing effects, animations, and still have good fps without OMM errors in v4. Take FT KLAS as an example. I see the city and airport miles away with no fps or fear of an OOM error. Huge city and airport with no problems.

 

You are comparing a scenery ( KMEM ) released in 2016, which development started in 2014, when we didn't even *knew* if there was ever be a 64 bit version of the simulator, with a scenery that just came out in 2019. Of course you don't risk OOM there. Not that you risk OOMs on our sceneries either, but we DID took great care to preventing it *because of FSX*.

 

Why you think FlyTampa ditched FSX as we did ? They were even MORE frustrated than us of OOMs in FSX. The difference is, they didn't had any ways to prevent it, and using any of their latest sceneries in FSX with memory-hungry airplanes, was almost impossible:

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I am just curious to know if there is someone who has successfully fly a PMDG 777 into Flytampa Toronto CYYZ. Even though I had a flight from Flightbeam KSFO HD to FSDT KLAX, I didn't experience OOM. My settings are definitely not agressive, but moderate. I have no idea why I still got OOM...

Hint: In 2016, Flightbeam KSFO HD was still using our Addon Manager software...that's what allowed FSX users to save their skin, and be as OOM-free as possible. Without miracles, of course, but our software made enough difference between OOM-ing or not.

 

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BTW, FPS in not an issue once KJFK loads. I can turn around and fly back to AS Manhattan, over DD KLGA, and back to KJFK and fps is acceptable and smooth. I don't want to go back, I hope you move forward and allow users of P3D v4 the option to see the airport from miles away.

Again, you are comparing a scenery which was made in 2009, for FSX. When we announced JFK for FSX back then, someone even mocked us that doing JFK in FSX would be "impossible" and we should have stayed with FS9. OF COURSE you don't have fps problems TODAY.

And yes, JFK will be the next one to be remade from the ground up, after KORD.

 

 

Quote

Also, please add the option to see DL at KCLT during dusk. It's annoying to approach such a beautiful rendition of an airport at dusk and not see the lighting. Your airports are outstanding and I want to be able to enjoy them.

If the only issue it's dusk, that would be an easy fix and, again,  nothing to do with out software in this case. We just set the DL to be visible at night only, but this is a standard option of the SDK, which can be easily changed.

Edited May 31, 2019 by virtuali

[virtuali 4,421]

Quote

So we ill have to wait for people in the community to see if it works or not. Since you "can't"say!

"Wait for people in the community". What's wrong with that ? Without even mentioning you seems to have conveniently ignored the key sentence here:

Quote

But of course, that's why we have a Trial version for...

So no, you don't have to "wait" the community, since you can check for yourself. Of course, I'm discussing about KORD V2 mostly, since the GSX PBR update will be free for everybody. Yes, the one that took 6 months of work full time by several people....

And no, "can't say" here doesn't imply anything other than the literal meaning "I don't know". But really, what you are suggesting we should do ?

1) Buying a new developement PC with Windows 7 ? Can I buy such system ? Where, exactly ? I guess this would mean at least a week of work lost, just to install everything needed to develop, handling the various software licenses, etc.

2) Reformatiing my main dev machine with Windows 7 ? Same as above, too much work lost, for no reason, and for an OS which will be OFFICIALLY DEAD IN JANUARY!

3) Assuming #1 and #2 were possible or feasible, what if we found the issue is NOT fixable, just because the way the sim works with DirectX, which we *need* to use, precisely to fix some issues which has been already discussed here ?

4) Who's gonna pay for all these added costs ? Should we charge some update fee to *all* users, just because *some* are staying with Windows 7 and find too annoying to "wait for the community" to know about issues ?

5) You want to be a tester ? Just contact me in private, and we can arrange that, so at least we would have someone with Windows 7. Not that this wouldn't change much: it would just save you from "wait for the community" to KNOW if there are Windows 7 issues, but won't obviously make any easier or even possible for us to fix them, because they might just not fixable.

So, in fact, the reality is very simple:

- Windows 7 will be totally unsupported in January so, if this is really an issue for you, it's not really a problem if you stop purchasing FSDT products for a while. Because, as I've said, sooner or later you WILL update to Windows 10, likely with a new PC, and so all this discussion would go forgotten, as usual.

Edited May 31, 2019 by virtuali

[Nyxx 6,993]

 

 

1

13 minutes ago, virtuali said:

And no, "can't say" here doesn't imply anything other than the literal meaning "I don't know". But really, what you are suggesting we should do ?

Simply ask someone that users W7 to sign a Do not disclose and as them to beta test it. 

It really would be that simple.

All the rest you wrote was very silly as the solution is as simple as I just suggested.

Or as you say W7 users can just wait and beta test it with the demo.

[virtuali 4,421]

Quote

 

Simply ask someone that users W7 to sign a Do not disclose and as them to beta test it. 

See Point #5 of my previous reply.

[Nyxx 6,993]

1 minute ago, virtuali said:

See Point #5 of my previous reply.

I did not read that far down. Sorry.

Yes, I would be happy to beta test GSXv2 update as I love it and with 99% of my flights are with FSL it's really a must-have. I've seen flyboys streams and other showing the beta and it looks fantastic, that's why it would be very frustrating to not be able to run it.

I also would be happy to beta test KORD as am very interested in buying that also. If you look my name up you will see I have bought around 80% of what you sell. I like very much what you do.

PM here or on your forums Umberto?

 

[CFIJose 5,485]

6 hours ago, virtuali said:

We just set the DL to be visible at night only, but this is a standard option of the SDK, which can be easily changed.

I will request at the FSDT forum.

Thanks.

[NZ255 309]

17 hours ago, virtuali said:

KORD V2, instead, uses a P3D4-exclusive method, which obtain the same effect ( base low res ground + hires details ) with NO multi-layers polygons

Hi Umberto, is this a standard SDK feature? Or does it rely on having something like Addon Manager powering it? I'm guessing it's not just using a detail map? As that was available in FSX.

Oh... is it using PBR and the 2 UVW channels?

Cheers, Nick

Edited June 1, 2019 by NZ255

[virtuali 4,421]

6 hours ago, NZ255 said:

Hi Umberto, is this a standard SDK feature? Or does it rely on having something like Addon Manager powering it? I'm guessing it's not just using a detail map? As that was available in FSX.

Oh... is it using PBR and the 2 UVW channels?

Cheers, Nick

It's standard P3D4 SDK feature, using the 2nd UV channel, so the detail map can be controlled independently from the base texture.

With FSX or older P3D versions, the only way to achieve this was to put another layer of polygons on top of the base layer, which means doubling the polygons, having a separate material running the slowest shared of all (breaking the material batching and stalling the video pipeline) and having to deal with possible z-fighting due to two layers being too close to each other.

With P3D4, done properly with UV2, we can achieve the same result, with half of the polygons, with a single material, and no flickering issues.

The UV2 feature was a pet peeve of mine, because it's *dramatically* changes the way airports are made, and it's there as a testament how LM listens to developers suggestions, since it was yours truly that suggested it...

Edited June 1, 2019 by virtuali