A scary New World

[Guest]

Ah, so you equate the right to light up a fag to having the right to hijack an aircraft with dozens of passengers and fly it into the side of an office building with thousands of people in it?

[Guest]

In time of war suspicion of being an enemy agent is sufficient ground to remove a person from society for the duration of the hostilities.The entire world is currently in a state of war against your terrorist friends, and therefore terrorist sympathisers and supporters can and should be removed from society by any means possible. There can be only one outcome to this war: the total elimination of terrorists and their sympathisers from the gene pool, as anything else will allow them to breed back.

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!You are going a little far with "my friends the terrorists". I am trying to give some perspective, in their best year so far Al Queida killed fewer Americans than drunk drivers. If you really want to suspend civil liberties to deal with a threat, you would do better locking up those with ties to tobacoo companies without trial. How many people die each year from smoking??? It's the same mentality that makes people fear shark attack, the truth is sharks kill less people in the entire world than collisions with deer deer do each year in the US. Yes, the sky is falling, Al-Queida's gonna get us, we didn't suspend civil liberties when the British burned Washington but we gotta do it now... I see the light. Right.Free speech zones: Those who demonstrate in support of Bush these days can do it anywhere they want along his motorcade route, but there are special zones for those demonstrating against. Get out much?There are major parralels between the 60's and today. An undeclared war, an increasingly polarised nation, political dynasties (bush/Kennedy)- wait a second, that Kennedy attempt at a dynasty ended in bloodshed incited by the far right, now it's reversed, the Right is the RED White And Blue Defenders Of the Republic. Remember the cheering schoolchildren??? Johnson was waiting for his chance to expand the Vietnam conflict, a sonarman mistook waves and the echo from his rudder for boats and torpedos and BINGO... Can you say Downing Street documents, oops there really was no link between Saddam and Bin Laden, but the Brits decided to go for it anyway. A minutes study will reveal their ideologies are totally different. Now Freepers are posting comments like "if it comes to civil war, no problem cuz we have all the guns..." That's just fine and dandy.Too far right and too far left do the same things.It's okay if we torture , kill, or lock people up without a trial but not them. You've convinced me. We will triumphantly chorus, "we have met the enemy, and it is us."It is open to debate whether there is a Supreme Being who judges individuals, but not that History judges nations. Mcarthyism may seem tame compared to the road we are treading now.I will say again, since the earth itself is transient, I consider it an abomination for any individual who believes the soul to be immortal to advocate or participate in the torture or killing of other humans to defend a country, property and especially their religion. That goes for Bin Laden, BTW. "My friends the terrorists?" Pulease.Best regards (still)Donny

[KevinAu 441]

"Al-Queida has killed fewer Americans than drunk drivers." That is a great line. If the terrorists ever become a bureacracy with a PR guy, that would be a great line for their spokesperson. You know, I'll bet more Jews died from smoking than were exterminated by a really bad dude. Wouldn't that make a great line too?You obviously have a lot of angst with the world, but why do you empathise more with the terrorists than your own countrymen trying to defend this country?

[Donmo 6]

Terrorism will NEVER totally be eliminated. Terrorists run on hate, a human emotion. No man or woman has the ability to remove a human emotion from everyone in the world. NO man or woman in history has been able to eliminate hate, as recorded history shows terrorism has existed for thousands of years. This is just an impossible thing to do. To eliminate hate and terrorism, the planet and all human life that lives on it would have to be wiped out totally. What is gained then? Game Over. What needs to be done is to defend ones self from it. It is NO nations job to seek out and try to destroy it, while leaving themselves wide open, as we have done here in the U.S.. Don

[Guest Zevious Zoquis]

"Al Queida killed fewer Americans than drunk drivers..."so far.

[Guest beana51]

Once again the barbarians are at the gates,how comfortable we all are,cloaked in the fist amendment.Reminds me of other history's,eat drink ,be merry.Don't worry it can't happen here.But it does and will happen again.It is the termite mentality that eats away the foundation of a society. a really bad dude,Tojo,Stalin,M's tung or however ya call him,would really accommodate most of free speech. Yes "KRAUTS,JAPS and others" were the enemy then.It took a lot of effort ,American,and world effort to convert them.Air power primarily. So now we "PLAY" aviation,marveling at those military aircraft.Did you forget that they were meant to kill those who would enslave us? Drunks kill many ,I read here.So does farming,Crab fishing, and falling off ladders.Megalomaniacs kill and have killed many "many millions",intionally,and by design,sanctioned by its people. We lost well over 100,000 boys in planes over Europe alone. They cudda filled the ROSE BOWEL That was no simulator game,it was for real.Most of them younger than the average simmer here.For some , instead of bad mouthing your country,try to say something good.For those non Americans in Europe and Asia,try to straighten up your own troubles,before you heap abuse on us here. Does doing that abusive stuff make them feel like some "SIM" hero by association with terrorists? Ya cant simulate being a hero, ya gotta do it. So hide in the anonymity of a forum lke this. We bailed you out enough.There are too many graves over there attesting that fact.Maby some of you guys should acquaint yourselves with them.Try saying thanks,or is that to American.Is it a scary world? you betcha,and only the strong will survive. VIN "TO DEFEND THE PEACE PREPARE FOR WAR"

[Guest Philip Olson]

Donny, Ho! Back up a bit here, I know you are passionate about your position but please consider this, Al Queida has vowed the destruction of the United States by any means possible so you must take such a threat seriously. If they could get a hold of a nuke I can assure you that at some point they would level a city so you have to fight them on the same level as you would an entire country, you can not belittle them by saying well they have only killed X amount of people so far. Ok, I am one who believes in personal liberty above all else and I am saddedned to see how much of it we keep losing in the US and sickened to see how little most others in the world have (even if they think they are free). I would like to know from you straight up how you would propose to fight this war and protect the citizens from Al Queida's promise to bring us and our freedom down. How do you protect the citizens of a nation when those that intend us harm are allowed to roam our streets freely? Lets go back to World War II for a moment, what would happen if someone saw a German army soldier walking down main street of your home town? He would be arrested and detained to protect our country, right? Would you allow that same soldier to roam free because under the laws of the US he has done nothing wrong, yet? Would you wait until he commits a crime before arresting him? The same applies today except that their is no clear destinction of who is an enemy and who is not, they do not wear uniforms, they try to blend in. We, the US and it's citizens, do not want to arrest and hold anyone who is not guilty, you are proof of that, but this is a very difficult time and it is not easy to fight this war. I do think that there is room for improvement in how we handle this but you have to remember that for each person we lock up there is a decent amount of suspicion about their involvement with the enemy. One bad thing about being a civlian is that we do not get to see the facts that the government has about the locked up people but I can assure you that those are dangerous people. I do not have the answer for how we should best handle this but I do know that letting many of those people roam free would probably mean the death of thousands of my fellow country men, friends and family. Freedom and rights should never be extended to anyone who wishes to take those sacred items (freedom and life) away from another. There is always a point where for the good of the nation in extreme circumstances that personal liberties need to be curtailed to save the lives of many, I don't like it but it is true. Here in the US every time we have crossed that line we have returned those freedoms when the danger has passed and there is nothing to indicate there is any difference now. In our system and with our people don't be fooled into thinking that we would put up with any less, we will take our rights back if need be. I would be on the front lines, that I can promise. If I am not mistaken we do have a bit of a problem here because the law does not really provide for action in a case like this, where a group not a country has declared war on us. I think that we are probably trying to do the best that we can given the limitations of the law but we have to protect ourselves. Donny I am sure that you are not proposing that we allow those that are jailed to roam free are you? Anyway, I would really like to know how you would handle this, how you would protect our country, freedom, and citizens against those that have sworn to bring us down. I mean that question in an honest and sincere way, maybe you do have a better way and only through communication can others learn. Please lay out your ideas as to how you would fight this war. Just to make sure you know my stand point, I do have some reservations about how we handle some things but I do not know a better way. War is ugly and sadly the only way to win is to do some very ugly things before they are done to you. Al Queida has declared war on us and to me the only choice we have is to destroy them before they do the same to us. I understand they probably can not destroy us literally but economically would produce the same result so we have to do what we must to ensure our survival. Best Regards,Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

[Guest]

Remember Kerry and his cronies putting opponents in concentration camps and steel cages during the DNC in Boston last year?That's another of your friends and his ideas about "freedom". Noone being allowed to say anything, anywhere, unless it agrees with Hanoi John's ideas isn't freedom, it's dictatorship.Yes, you would fit in well with your terrorist friends. Hanoi John for president, Osama as secretary of the interior and chairman of the KGB, you as secretary of indoctrination and propaganda.Would be a very free USA indeed...McCarthy was in fact quite right, communism was (and still is) the greatest danger to democracy the world has ever seen.The current Islamofascists you love so much are communists, their Islamic ideals are only a front to get them support from the illiterate masses in the Middle East.

[Donmo 6]

How many nights a week do you do standup? Man, get a freaking education! That last paragraph is DEAD wrong! Islamics are NOT communists! LMFAO! Read a book, please!Don

[RFields5421 1]

but you have to remember that for each person we lock up there is a decent amount of suspicion about their involvement with the enemy. How do you know that?What gives you any idea that everyone locked up might be correctly locked up?We have a system and laws in this country to determine if individuals should be deprived of their liberty and freedom of movement. We have a constitution which sets the framework for those laws and how they are applied.The current US federal government is saying clearly and plainly - that the executive branch of government is able to decide which American citizens can be locked up.That the courts, the laws of the United States and the constitution of the United States do not apply to any United States citizen whom the administration chooses.Is that alright because someone says they might be a terrorist?How do you define terrorism?Is an unarmed 12 year old kid who throws rocks at armed adults a terrorist? (Yes, according to one country)Is an adult who takes a military assualt rifle and shoots up a bus, killing four unarmed civilians a terrorist? (No, according to the same country)Is destroying a civilian airliner and killing over 200 people on a regular scheduled flight terrorism? (The US government gave the guy a medal)I've puts parts of 241 friends in body bags after a car bomb attack in the Middle East while wearing the uniform of the US Navy, I've been shot at on a couple contintents in that uniform - thankfully only once successfully. My son was in the 3rd Infantry unit which captured the Baghdad airport.The Constitution we swore to protect and defend guarantees certain rights to all citizens of this country all the time.I'm sorry, but I see no difference between this administration argument and Hilter's argument about the threats to Germany by the Jews.

[N400QW 205]

Just a bit of input that may help some focus on what is important to many citizens of the USA.Though Winston Churchill once remarked that "Democracy is the worst form of government on the face of the earth except for all the others",:-) US citizens and US Institutions have always and will always rise to the defence of our own Constitution, Rule of Law, Liberties, Rights and Freedoms, etc. against any enemy be they foreign OR domestic.We love our freedoms and have paid dearly in lives and treasure to not only OBTAIN, but RETAIN these freedoms throughout our history.We are very certain that criminals, terrorists, and/or any other enemy to the US, should and do forfeit their "own rights" when they conspire to, or engage in, "acts of terrorism" against legitimate citizens of the US in ANY country on the globe.The fact that known terrorists are not only incarcerated and interrogated, but also denied "so called rights" which they themselves have forfeited by their actions, should be of great comfort to all that would have terrorism eliminated not only from our world, but from our vocabularies.As a US citizen who remembers well what life was like PRIOR to the use of the words "terrorist and terrorism", I applaud ALL efforts by US and other governments across the globe who wish to halt and/or eliminate this scourge from the planet.While the goal of elimination of such actions and ideolgies may seem impossible...we may want to accept a lesser remedy in which the terrorist are either automatically incarcerated for life, or if that were too expensive...automatic execution upon a finding/proof of guilt with no appeal possible in either case.This is NOT an academic discussion, one thing we should ALL agree on is the "terrorist's and terrorism" have but one goal...that is the elimination of you and I and our way of life.

[Guest beana51]

Trouble is these guys are still smarting from the shellacking they got in the crusades.They won't forget it.Secondly they have this biblical thing with the HEBREWS. "the friend of my enemy is my enemy".We are taught our civilization began in that area.Not so, mid eastern civilization is as alien to western culture as if it came from outer space.Which of course is where phrofits came from.(it is written) Our Greco/Roman heritage has nothing in common with those eastern cultures.It is because over the centuries ,Western culture over came that Islamic treat,and is why we are the diversity we are now., In our lifetime,we will be again confronted with the same challenges our ancestors faced.Will it take them 20yrs,100yrs.1000yrs?,no matter, their populations are growing,owers diminishing, and they have the time.In the name of god they want to kill us,and in the name of god,we will resist. This is Historic Madness,that keeps repeating it self.Should we fail, and in a very short period of time all we take for granted will be erased forever.Our world ruled by mullahs, filthy rich with the money for oil, we gave them.Me, I'm very pessimistic.Some of the dialog out there is really scary. To them ,we appear vulnerable,our warrior class diminishing. Were fat,rich,"Geeky". They are lean, hungry,fanatical and all speak and think the same thing, that is,our destruction. They are ready to mount our heads over their doors.They do cut heads you know! The trouble is CHINIA sits in the shadows,and waits,their population growing ,wanting things we got,licking its chops.For in the end it is THEY who wish to dominiate the world.Better wake up people,we may not have much time left. VIN

[Guest Philip Olson]

Reggie, Your arguements are good and valid to a point. Should we extend freedom to a person that we know has terrorist links until they kill people? I find it amusing that you compare Bush to a really bad dude here, did the Jews tell the German government that they were going to destroy them? Did the Jews hijack aircraft and fly them into prominent German buildings and rejoice at the death toll? That arguement holds no water when you look at the facts. Sadly I have to leave now but I extend to you this question, at what point do you take action to protect your country from people that are known to have links to those that have attacked and vow to attack our country again? I will say this quickly, yes I do have some concerns that our government may be locking some people up before they have enough proof of their danger, but when lives are on the line in a case like this you have to be careful that the line of proof is not a hinderance to our safety. I also have some concerns as to the processing of people once arrested, making sure the innocent get freed at some point. I do not know enough about the governemnts actions here to allow me to comment one way or the other here but I am going to find out. Where should the line be drawn between protecting our country and it's people and the rights of people whom are suspected of wanting to take them away? I am talking about right now under the circumstances we face today after the attacks.Best Regards,Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

[KevinAu 441]

And the Executive Branch is carrying out exactly the mandate that was given them in November of 2004. When people went to the polls in 2004, the choice was "soft" or "hard" and "hard" won. The Executive Branch is doing exactly what the majority of this country's citizens wants them to do.How would I define terrorism? Intent. Did Captain Rogers intend to shoot down an A300 or an F-14? Did Mohamed Atta intend to crash a 767 into one of the WTC buildings or not? Your attempt to compare the US Navy to Al-Queda are disingenuous.I don't believe the Jews ever swore to annihilate the Germans nor did they murder thousands of Germans, as the Muslims have with respect to Western Civilization.