Problem with Prepar 3D Version 4.5

[SteveW 1,792]

I don't mind adding I merely describe what MS and LM recommend, and why there are proper locations for software e.g. code, and locations for user files e.g. settings. To ask the question why LM don't care about the way a few addons work is actually a reasonable question. Older software might not adhere to that secure structure, splitting the user files from the code files. However it is for the developer to take care of that or we can expect anything to happen. When the rules are broken there are inevitable issues. PCs are not simple and a better experience is had when adhering to the model.

People chiming in with "I had problems trying stock locations" can join a bigger queue of people with relocated folders. They unfortunately introduced FUD into the discussion.

No need to reorganise the way software is intended to work for a few older packages that need permission to write there.

The idea that changing a permission represents difficulty, or some kind of dangerous maneuver is FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt).

Adding the tick is something more basic than changing location and doesn't require managing once done because that folder continues as if installed on WinXP where ordinary users had write access there. And that, way back then, produced the development of code and user files in the same place.

[SteveW 1,792]

...and do LM and MS care? Of course they do. We already see that the location of add-ons inside the simulator code structure is well and truly frowned upon. Eventually there will  be none and we need not worry about the tick, or relocating the sim.

Here's another one. If these folders are made by us, and we own them and so we have no trouble writing there, why then do we have to Run as Admin. After all, we already have permission. And then lowering the UAC slider, perhaps so networking works, is that a good idea? I have information of several recently that have been attacked by proper malware.

Proper malware attacks are not visible. The visible ones, "Virus XYZ detected and quarantined", they take your eye off the ball.

 

[pete_auau 1,159]

to  the  op  why didn't  you just  use  the  client  and  content  update

[kmanning 12]

8 hours ago, pete_auau said:

to  the  op  why didn't  you just  use  the  client  and  content  update

Because I wanted the Full Install and that's what LM recommends. The Client and Content updates are for advances users. It was not just a minor update. When they come out with a later version, one should download the Full Install, unless you have a slow internet connection, the one may need to use the Client/Content.

Ken.

[pete_auau 1,159]

7 hours ago, kmanning said:

Because I wanted the Full Install and that's what LM recommends. The Client and Content updates are for advances users. It was not just a minor update. When they come out with a later version, one should download the Full Install, unless you have a slow internet connection, the one may need to use the Client/Content.

Ken.

for  advance  users  not  sure what your referring  to  just a matter of  downloading the client  and  content  nothing  advanced  about  it

[Reader 2,021]

The best thing to do when banging your head against a brick wall is to stop.

[kevinfirth 1,396]

22 hours ago, kmanning said:

You do not know what you're talking about. You are the one that is mis-interpreting the discussion. These problems did not exist because I chose to install P3D outside the Program Files folder. Lockheed Martin states that you can install P3D into another folder, and I know what I'm talking about here. Even Developers like PMDG and others recommend P3D being installed outside the Program Files folder. This is where all of the write permission originates, and I see that some disagree with you. I for one know what I'm talking about.

Ken.

I'm sorry Ken, but when you have the experience and credibility to match Steve's, I'll consider your views on a equal footing. 

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

7 hours ago, kevinfirth said:

I'm sorry Ken, but when you have the experience and credibility to match Steve's, I'll consider your views on a equal footing. 

I haven't even met any old wives recently who believe in the "program file folder" tale. Some myths die hard.

[kmanning 12]

18 hours ago, Reader said:

The best thing to do when banging your head against a brick wall is to stop.

What do you mean by "the best thing to do when banging your head against a brick wall is to stop?" This has no meaning and does not explain what you're talking about.

Ken.

[kmanning 12]

18 hours ago, kevinfirth said:

I'm sorry Ken, but when you have the experience and credibility to match Steve's, I'll consider your views on a equal footing. 

Hey, it's doesn't matter to me rather you consider my views or not, and why do you find it necessary to suggest that my experience and knowledge is not as credible as Steve's?

[kevinfirth 1,396]

1 hour ago, kmanning said:

Hey, it's doesn't matter to me rather you consider my views or not, and why do you find it necessary to suggest that my experience and knowledge is not as credible as Steve's?

Good mate, well you carry on then.  Lets just say I know enough about @SteveW to be able to make the judgement he very much knows what he's talking about.  Because of personal conversations we've had, because of the number of technical explanations I've seen him provide for people here and elsewhere, his published products....and that he doesn't go around saying "I know what I'm talking about".  He walks the walk...., but no offence, I wish you all the best 🙂

Edited November 4, 2019 by kevinfirth

[Reader 2,021]

9 hours ago, kmanning said:

What do you mean by "the best thing to do when banging your head against a brick wall is to stop?" This has no meaning and does not explain what you're talking about.

Ken.

The comment was addressed to Peter and the other contributors to your topic.

You have made it clear that your opinion is the only correct one.

It has been suggested that this might not be the case.

Since you are not open to that suggestion, trying to convince you otherwise is similar to banging one's head against

a brick wall, a painful and pointless thing to do.

Also no offence and I also wish you well.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Reader

[SteveW 1,792]

I get it that many have been using a private folder with no issues. However, I recall from supporting these simulators that by far the least problems are experienced from those using the stock install and allocating Modify Allow if add-ons are installed there that write back to setting files in everyday use.

I get it that installing onto another drive requires a new folder, but we need not install on another drive since we can move heavy loads off the C drive with simulator configuration. With P3D we can put only xml add-on files onto C drive which point to large scenery and aircraft installs on other drives. In any case all the Users working files are on the C drive anyway. Altering this behaviour to move My Docs and appdata to other drives with symbolic links is not recommended as not all resources can access them since security is handled differently.

 

I'm here explaining why LM and MS do what they do, and why security tightened in the OS since WinXP. It was a point raised in the OP.

I've explained how some software behaves incorrectly within the model. Whereby they put user modifiable files with code in protected folders, and how and why that came about. So we are basically talking about how to handle a few badly behaved programs left over from the older OS.

I've explained why these programs are better behaved when handled correctly, with Modify Allow permission for the Users group on their Program Files folders and how simple it is to do. I've explained why that is safe, and why it leaves no further concern for the life of the simulator.

I've explained how and why folder renaming ideas came about to handle these programs and why they appeared to work since they are owned by the user and have modify access by definition.

I've explained how folder renaming can be the cause of new problems, compared to how proper methods work to avoid new problems. It is very obvious - that changing the default behaviour of any program to support a plug in or resource can cause problems for other plug-ins and resources.

I've explained how improper methods can cause more work and more concern when including more add-ons in the system. Add-ons are only really fully tested on stock systems.

I've explained that some programs update system files or registry and must run as admin.

I've explained that running as Admin simply for the purpose to allow that user file to be updated when installed in \Program Files, need not be used. Instead we can safely give the User group Modify Allow permission to the folder. Then that program acts as if on WinXP.

As home users we can safely add Modify Allow to the existing Users group on a subfolder of Program Files for the purpose, since only authenticated accounts belong to it. Industrial software might create a new users group, e.g. CAD Users and supers would add qualified users to that group, from the Users group. Software that requires access in User mode can install special permissions for themselves rather than run as admin. It is acceptable to allow User Modify in some protected folders when we know they are necessary for some tricky add-on and it is acceptable by the user. Then the add-on can add the permission during installation when it is elevated.

Software programs ordinarily should make all admin calls during installing when they have elevated privileges, but thereafter work as User.

I recall a mushrooming of problems since relocation of the sim became fashionable.

I send special thanks out to those supporting my efforts here and on the forums.

[kmanning 12]

16 hours ago, Reader said:

You have made it clear that your opinion is the only correct one.

NO, YOU 3 are the ones who keep suggesting that your opinions are correct, and forcing the issue. I did not say that my opinion was correct. The things I said here, and talked about, came from the people who design the software and the addons, which were PMDG and Lockheed Martin. But you 3 have done nothing but run around it, what they have said, and keep suggesting that your views, or opinions, are correct. I'm not the one who is doing it. So, it seems to me that there are different opinions on this, and they say one thing and you 3 say something else. I'm going with what they say.

 

16 hours ago, Reader said:

Since you are not open to that suggestion, trying to convince you otherwise is similar to banging one's head against

a brick wall, a painful and pointless thing to do.

The average person is not going to interpret that as trying to convince someone of a topic. That can go both ways regarding convincing someone. I've stated what was factual and said by these companies and y'all just go around it, and what you 3 say contradicts what these people have said,

Ken. 

[Reader 2,021]

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I did not say that my opinion was correct

Really?

Quote

 

You do not know what you're talking about. You are the one that is mis-interpreting the discussion. These problems did not exist because I chose to install P3D outside the Program Files folder. Lockheed Martin states that you can install P3D into another folder, and I know what I'm talking about here. Even Developers like PMDG and others recommend P3D being installed outside the Program Files folder. This is where all of the write permission originates, and I see that some disagree with you. I for one know what I'm talking about.

 

I would agree that the answer that you took issue with was not to your specific question but to the more general observation that you added to your first post.

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I do not install them into the Program Files Directory but I install them in the C directory. This prevents many issues that arises from using the Program Files directory

To address the question that you did ask:

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did this version of 4.5 not install correctly and I need to re-install it so that the folder structure is correct

 

If you take another read, you will see that at no point did I suggest that you should not install P3D to your chosen location,

or indeed that you should do anything except correct the mistake that you had made if you wished to solve the problem.

Agreed that a great deal has been added to this topic on the subject of where to install software.

Your original question in between the comment was

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my P3D sim is installed in C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5

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I was wondering if Lockheed Martin had moved some of these folders to the C directory

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The SimObjects folder, for example, has been moved from Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4.5 to the C directory

This was my reply

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it is clear that you have in fact installed P3D to C:\ and not

C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5.

Your remaining C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5 folder will contain all addon files,

as they cannot be deleted by the P3D installer.

The best solution is to completely uninstall P3D, also deactivating it.

Then start again and make sure that your selected custom location is C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5

before you start the installation.

 

Your reply was

Quote

Well, some of the files went to the C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3Dv4 and some went to the C directory. What I've noticed after I installed P3D is that some of the folders that were supposed to be in the main Prepar 3D v4 folder were scattered about the C directory and were not placed correctly. That was the first thing I noticed. It could have been that some of those folders were accidently placed in the C directory even before I installed P3D. And these folders having the same names as those in the main Prepar 3Dv4 folder, when I reinstalled the upgrade, some of the files went to the wrong folders. I don't know how they got there, but I do know they should not have been there. So, I deleted all the related folders that were in the C directory. One folder was named SimObjects, which is where aircrafts are installed. When I tried to installed my aircraft addon, it went to the SimObject folder that was in the C directory rather than the SimObject in the main Prepar 3D v4 folder. There were 2 of them, both in different locations. My aircraft addons would not show up in the aircraft list. And, the OK button was grayed out when I chose the location of my sim. As I said, P3D was installed in C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3Dv4. I just simply took out the Program Files from the install location box when I first installed P3D. The problem was that some of the folders went to the C directory and some in the main P3D directory, and some of them were in 2 different locations. I don't know what happened but I just knew it was wrong. So, I uninstalled and reinstalled again. This time, all the folder structures were correct. I know some say that P3D will still work even when the folders are placed else where. It may work, but it causes nothing but problems when addon are installed, and they go to the wrong folders. I know and I experience that, and that's not how these folders are supposed to be placed in the first place. But everything is fine now.

Ken.

 

which is irrefutable evidence that the "reinstallation" that led you to make the topic in the first place was to C:\ and not to 

C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5.

This can only take place with user intervention and is never a mystery, though now that it is fixed, the point is moot.

The rest is between you and those who posted it but I see nothing but sound advice from them to you.

Clearly you do not agree.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Reader