I've just upgraded my Prepar 3D from version 4.4 to version 4.5, and I wanted to be sure it installed correctly. I completely un-installed the previous 4.4 to version. First of all, let me say that when I install my flight sim programs, both FSX and P3D, I do not install them into the Program Files Directory but I install them in the C directory. This prevents many issues that arises from using the Program Files directory, and I don't understand why Lockheed Martin does not install the sim in the C: directory by default in the first place to prevent those other issue. So, my P3D sim is installed in C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5.  

What I've noticed after the installation is that it did not have the same folder structure, and I was wondering if Lockheed Martin had moved some of these folders to the C directory, maybe for greater ease of aircraft and scenery addons.

This is important because I've had problems trying to get some of my addons to install. I've spent hours and hours of my time trying to figure out why the scenery addons would not installed, or why the aircrafts addons would not show up in the sim even though they were installed correctly. I've had no problems or issues like this in previous versions of P3D because their folder structures were always the same. But this time, some of the folders have been moved from the Prepar 3D v4.5 directory to the C directory. After I figured out what has occurred, I reinstalled my addons, but this time to their new directories, and now the scenery addons installed successfully and the aircraft addons now shows up in the sim. The SimObjects folder, for example, has been moved from Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4.5 to the C directory, and several other folders have been moved  to the C directory. Is this the new Folder Structure in version 4.5 or should they still have the same folder structure as they did in previous versions? In other words, did this version of 4.5 not install correctly and I need to re-install it so that the folder structure is correct.

Ken. 

 

 

For me the folder structure appears the same as it has before.  Have you posted on the Lockheed Martin support forum?

 

 

It sounds like your installation went terrible wrong.

Uninstall and start again.

Regards,

Simbol 

For the record, I have never had a problem installing in either the Program Files (x86) or Program Files folders......but then I still use Windows 7.

Edited October 29, 20196 yr by Christopher Low

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:12 AM, kmanning said:

 I do not install them into the Program Files Directory but I install them in the C directory. This prevents many issues that arises from using the Program Files directory, and I don't understand why Lockheed Martin does not install the sim in the C: directory by default in the first place to prevent those other issue. So, my P3D sim is installed in C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5.  

 

This is an old wives tale and is not a necessity. Since 99% of problems arise from installing into private folders it is better to Install into the stock location. Before installing addons, simply check the Modify Allow permission to the Users group on the P3D folder - one tick.

the same in v2 and 3, v4 is in C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin:

http://www.codelegend.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=601

Hello Ken,

it is clear that you have in fact installed P3D to C:\ and not

C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5.

Your remaining C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5 folder will contain all addon files,

as they cannot be deleted by the P3D installer.

The best solution is to completely uninstall P3D, also deactivating it.

Then start again and make sure that your selected custom location is C:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar 3D v 4.5

before you start the installation.

Edited October 30, 20196 yr by Reader

5 hours ago, SteveW said:

This is an old wives tale and is not a necessity. Since 99% of problems arise from installing into private folders it is better to Install into the stock location. Before installing addons, simply check the Modify Allow permission to the Users group on the P3D folder - one tick.

the same in v2 and 3, v4 is in C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin:

http://www.codelegend.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=601

Can't say I agree with much of this.  I've had issues in the past with networked ancillary applications failing to write files in the Program Files folder, as one example of why I *never* install flight sim programs into Program Files*\*. 

I think more problems are caused by too much being installed into the stock folders...and on the boot drive, no less...than by installation into custom folders.

Regards

3 minutes ago, w6kd said:

Can't say I agree with much of this.  I've had issues in the past with networked ancillary applications failing to write files in the Program Files folder, as one example of why I *never* install flight sim programs into Program Files*\*. 

I think more problems are caused by too much being installed into the stock folders...and on the boot drive, no less...than by installation into custom folders.

Regards

Can't disagree with you more. Your issues are through failure to understand what went wrong with your setup. I see attempting to locate the sim elsewhere.as the number one cause of issues. Perpetuated by the mis-information around.

Indeed the OP has already fallen at the first hurdle of relocating. Then that hurdle will always be present.

 

I put the ball in your court - can you explain what the problems are with the Program Files folders for some systems?

Also can you expand on the reasons for Running as admin, and why UAC access might need to be altered for some systems?

Anyone having difficulties with the stock location of programs should consider what a location actually is:

 

What is “C:\Program Files”. It’s a Folder and that is a location for Files.

For applications on the system and on the network, they can either;

·         Programs cannot see the file.

·         Programs can Read the files, but can’t Write to them.

·         Programs can Read them and Write to them.

So there can be very few problems.

·         Programs cannot read the file

·         Programs can read but cannot write the file.

The differences presented are by differences in Permission. Only able to do what the permission allows.

So it can be seen that it is due to Permissions that files can be accessed.

By giving the Users group Modify Allow access we circumvent any issues of unavailable files in that location, keeping inside the security system.

 

If we can’t read or Write to a file from our Program, the User that runs the program does not have permission to access the file in the desired way.

And so we get solutions of several varieties, mostly a stab in the dark. For example, we make a Private folder. Of course by definition we have access to private folders since we made them. As if by magic our Program can access the file as it desires. However, as a test, log in as another user and elevate to Admin, notice the file can’t be accessed. Installer admins can also have issue leaving files gone to nowhere.

We can run as Admin to raise our privilege to run a program so that we acquire Permission, and we can access the files then, but the network setup doesn’t work..

Or we can give the Users group Modify Allow permission on those folders where we want to guarantee permission to Write there. And do away with the mess of private folders and keep within Windows security. And stock Installs of sim and add-ons go straightforward, without need for user intervention.

Edited October 30, 20196 yr by SteveW

With all due respect, this discussion does not help Ken at all.

Edited October 30, 20196 yr by Reader

18 minutes ago, Reader said:

With all due respect, this discussion does not help Ken at all.

Of course it does!

If the OP installed P3D where Lockheed Martin and Microsoft Windows intended. And for those addons wanting to write to files there added the Modify Allow permission for the Users group on that folder. Then he would not have been here in the first place.

In my opinion the advice to locate elsewhere, has been, and will continue to be, the main source of problems in P3D and FSX.
 

Edited October 30, 20196 yr by SteveW

The location of FSX and P3D never was an issue, the program is happy installed wherever we like. I have not found problems with FSX or P3D installed anywhere else.

We make a folder off C:\ like \FS or another drive perhaps D:\ such as to be something like D:\FS, and we install P3D or FSX into that subfolder. I think that's where the OP went wrong as was mentioned earlier in the thread. The OP wanted to know why LM install into Program Files [when it is a bother]. We now say it simply is not an issue and Chris mentioned there's no problems with the stock location first.

The Program Files location is somewhat thought of as taboo in the FS community, which is a big shame, through poor information given out.

The facts are - it is only certain add-ons that install into the sim folders we must worry about. It is that which drove the popular notion of putting the sim onto private folders because those addons don't adhere to installation policy. Some do that simply because they have acquired the use of a trainer module they can't relocate.

The single tick of the Users group Modify Allow box was unknown outside of NT administration. The FS crowd missed that back when WinXP went out of fashion - that's just part of FS history now. In short, the special need to install into private folders is dead.

A professional installation does it the NT way - if permission is required by an add-on we give the permission - we don't relocate the app or run as admin, that just makes more work and adds points of possible failure. If I installed P3D at a client like that they would call me back in to rectify it, then after I fixed it they would ask me never to return.

Add-ons are not tested in a arbitrary location with arbitrarty User rights. Applications are only thoroughly tested in the proper location in Program Files. So it makes sense to try to keep to policy, keep a tidy ship.

. 

 

Edited October 31, 20196 yr by SteveW

Hint to the poster:
I do not install into the "root folder", but simply replace "Program Files" by the string "Games" in the target location entry field (I created this intermediate folder C:\games before), so the p3d installation goes into C:\games\Lockheed Martin\...).

Regarding "Program Files" and modification of access rights:

Microsoft likes to protect this folder against modification from non administrative users.
Only administrators should write into this folder - therefore you have to run programs that write into this folder with elevated rights or get the "allow access" popup if a program running without admin rights wants to write into it. So the advise to allow modification access to the "Program files" folder to normal users is in opposite to Microsofts intention to protect the "Program files" folder. Talking about "policy", we have to keep an eye on this intention.

But if one installs P3D into "Program files" without modifying the access rights, the sim itself and many  addons write into the folder structure below "Program files\Lockheed Martin", so they all have to be run with admin elevation: be sure that these addons aren't infected with malware ! A program with admin rights could not only write to "Program files" but do much more (harm) to your Windows system than just write into "Program files".

So one should know what he's doing if changing the intended protection mechanisms of Windows folder structures. In my opinion more risk than simply changing the target folder of the installation. But everyone must decide for himself...

10 hours ago, QuaxTheSnoopie said:

But if one installs P3D into "Program files" without modifying the access rights, the sim itself and many  addons write into the folder structure below "Program files\Lockheed Martin", so they all have to be run with admin elevation:

"the sim itself"    -  That part is incorrect.

Only add-ons cause that problem.

 

To be factual:

These sims (FSX/P3D) and properly designed Windows apps do not ever write to Program files (protected folders) unless installing. Only during install do they elevate to admin privilege to make changes to the system.

It is only add-ons we installed that write there and they only need Modify access.

We don't reorganise the program to run in a users folder or set it all up to run as admin.

In short - if our program wants to write to a folder that it made inside a program files folder and we want to let it do that we give the Modify Allow permission to the Users group on that folder, just one checkbox. Now it can write there and inside the secure boundary.

===========================================================================

If we want permission to write we give the permission we don't make a folder or run as admin - that's the cause of 99% of problems.

 

Files in Program files are static and are only updated by admin accounts because they are protected from abuse by malware. Application files for updating by users should be located in user accessible folders. A program that changes the sim files, perhaps the aircraft paints, can elevate privileges to do that.

There are several apps still around, born in the past, before Windows security tightened against malware, after Win XP. They put their own user updated files inside the Program Files folder instead of locating in user locations, to cut corners. Programs that update their files inside program files are, in fact, operating illegally.

But if we get one of those add-ons that try to update files inside the Program Files folder what can we do? We must make provision for those. We can run as admin but that poses other problems. We can make a private folder as well that leads to even more issues. If we can't write to a file that's Write permission needed, not relocation of the program files it put itself into!

Instead, we use the mechanism provided by the Windows OS - User or Group Permissions.

All we need to know is as Windows user we log on and we become a member of the Users group. All authenticated users are made members of the Users group.

If we have to install apps (some add-ons) that user files reside inside Program Files, and these apps write out to themselves as User, they can't write. These were designed badly and before Windows security was increased. The rules were well advertised by MS a decade before then, so they had time to adjust their game.

What we can do OFFICIALLY for those is to check the Modify Allow permission for the users group on their program files folder - now we can write there. We can do that on the root sim folder or only the folder installed by the plane.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 20196 yr by SteveW

My recommendation for installation of P3D and FSX is:

install in program files:

"C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4"

 

 install our add-on and then IF we see new folders and files in there, such as:

"C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\OldAddon\settings.ini"

And when we run the sim and that add-on can't write to the settings.ini file

 

The proper solution is:

We add Modify Allow to the Users group on that folder:

"C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\OldAddon" -> right click on folder, Properties, Security tab, Edit button, choose Users group, check the Modify Allow.box

Now when we run the sim the add-on can update its settings.ini file - we don't need to run as admin and we don't need to relocate the sim

 

If we want to avoid placing 1.5TB of scenery onto drive C:\ we can locate on Drive D:\ and point to it with the configuration mechanisms of the simulator program.

That is the most reliable way to set up the sim. Works properly without elevating to admin access.