Concorde announced by Aeroplane Heaven

[Christopher Low 5,359]

Thinking of what the airline industry is going to be like after Covid 19, I suspect that it will be a long time before we ever see a replacement for Concorde.

[trumpetfrazz1 89]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Frazz, I knew you would know the full story. It should also be remembered that once AF decided to withdraw Concorde from service and thus their half of all maintenance costs the load on BA became unsustainable.

The offer to buy the aircraft by Richard Branson's Virgin was never going to be acceptable to BA even though the public would probably have welcomed it.

Yes, but what the French side did could have been challenged legally because of the no-break clause in the agreement.  If one side pulled out, the other were to be responsible for half the costs anyway.  This is where BA weakened and gave in which would not have happened at an earlier point in history.  There are also unconfirmed reports that BA were given a substantial discount on some new 'buses to sweeten the deal, but that is rumour...if you know what I mean!

To be impartial about it though, there were going to be significant costs engineering wise with the new regulations coming in for ADS-B etc. and although technically a group was already looking at fitting upgraded avionics to comply with this, the ultimate costs involved plus the ageing systems was going to be expensive. 

BUT, one aircraft could have and should have been kept flying, even if scheduled services had to stop.  The French side put a stop to this and that is the reason there is still a lot of resentment about it all. 

It would have ended around 2008 - 2010 anyway between noise issues and the financial downturn, but one should have still been airworthy.  

[HighBypass 2,339]

Didn't Airbus own the type approval for Concorde, thus non really does mean NON once they decided she shall never fly again?

[trumpetfrazz1 89]

2 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

Thinking of what the airline industry is going to be like after Covid 19, I suspect that it will be a long time before we ever see a replacement for Concorde.

I don't think we'll ever see a direct replacement.  Small business jet possibly, but the economics even now of an airliner at Mach 2 are so against it.  It was always a case of brute force over ignorance in economic terms, all power against huge drag in technical terms, but brains and intelligence to get the thing to work at all. 

[trumpetfrazz1 89]

27 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

Didn't Airbus own the type approval for Concorde, thus non really does mean NON once they decided she shall never fly again?

Yes, but it could have been transferred to another company if they no longer wanted responsibility.  Again, the fact that Airbus is basically French now, meant they held all the cards in the end.  Legally it could have been challenged but the fight had gone from within BA. 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,989]

3 hours ago, trumpetfrazz1 said:

Yes, but what the French side did could have been challenged legally because of the no-break clause in the agreement.  If one side pulled out, the other were to be responsible for half the costs anyway.  This is where BA weakened and gave in which would not have happened at an earlier point in history.  There are also unconfirmed reports that BA were given a substantial discount on some new 'buses to sweeten the deal, but that is rumour...if you know what I mean!

BUT, one aircraft could have and should have been kept flying, even if scheduled services had to stop.  The French side put a stop to this and that is the reason there is still a lot of resentment about it all. 

It would have ended around 2008 - 2010 anyway between noise issues and the financial downturn, but one should have still been airworthy.  

I thought that agreement was cast in stone so shame on the British for not insisting the French honour it. Dodgy deals in the shadows! Who would have thought that? Pah!

Yes, one aircraft really should have been kept airworthy for special events. No doubt there would have been more weasel words why that was not possible. The French generally never had the same love of Concorde the Brits had. Pax numbers from CDG to JFK were probably well down on the LHR equivalent which probably didn’t best please them. All in all a sad end to a lovely aircraft.

Which is why it’s more important than ever it stays alive in the flight sim world. Are you listening FS Labs?

[trumpetfrazz1 89]

36 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I thought that agreement was cast in stone so shame on the British for not insisting the French honour it. Dodgy deals in the shadows! Who would have thought that? Pah!

Yes, one aircraft really should have been kept airworthy for special events. No doubt there would have been more weasel words why that was not possible. The French generally never had the same love of Concorde the Brits had. Pax numbers from CDG to JFK were probably well down on the LHR equivalent which probably didn’t best please them. All in all a sad end to a lovely aircraft.

Which is why it’s more important than ever it stays alive in the flight sim world. Are you listening FS Labs?

I would say the French in general did love Concorde but they could never quite get it to work.  The crews and engineers loved working with her but (trying to think how to put this in a nice way) they were mentally "wired" differently to the BA crowd. From what I've heard they were more, shall we say "relaxed" in the way they operated and marketed her where BA took it seriously.   There was also more than one story of rather marginal operations and without being disrespectful, if you look at the figures/track record of AF in general not just with Concorde, it paints quite a picture...

Not to say we didn't have the odd character over here, like the captain nick named "animal" who once flew down the 18th hole at Wentworth with 100 PAX on board. Or the late, great Captain John Cook who tool the first Concorde to Airventure at Oshkosh and did an unplanned (at least to ATC) touch and go instead of landing, causing ATC a bit of a headache - and I can understand why knowing how busy it is.  Incidentally, in those days the runway at Oshkosh was 6001ft long I believe (I wonder who spent the time measuring that extra foot!) and the minimum allowable runway length for Concorde was always 6000ft.  He had no problem stopping but I bet that runway looked terribly small on finals!

[Ray Proudfoot 8,989]

1 hour ago, trumpetfrazz1 said:

I would say the French in general did love Concorde but they could never quite get it to work.  The crews and engineers loved working with her but (trying to think how to put this in a nice way) they were mentally "wired" differently to the BA crowd. From what I've heard they were more, shall we say "relaxed" in the way they operated and marketed her where BA took it seriously.   There was also more than one story of rather marginal operations and without being disrespectful, if you look at the figures/track record of AF in general not just with Concorde, it paints quite a picture...

Not to say we didn't have the odd character over here, like the captain nick named "animal" who once flew down the 18th hole at Wentworth with 100 PAX on board. Or the late, great Captain John Cook who tool the first Concorde to Airventure at Oshkosh and did an unplanned (at least to ATC) touch and go instead of landing, causing ATC a bit of a headache - and I can understand why knowing how busy it is.  Incidentally, in those days the runway at Oshkosh was 6001ft long I believe (I wonder who spent the time measuring that extra foot!) and the minimum allowable runway length for Concorde was always 6000ft.  He had no problem stopping but I bet that runway looked terribly small on finals!

I was thinking more of the general public than the professionals who worked on her. I'm sure all of them were chosen for both their skill and dedication. Yes, they did do things that BA wouldn't have done with one very notable example in 2000 but there's no need to dwell on that.

A nickname of 'Animal' speaks volumes. Must have been a Muppet fan! What a pity the Wentworth event couldn't have been filmed. It would now be on YT will a view count of millions! I always thought the final Concorde flight into Heathrow in October 2003 should have performed a touch 'n go. It would be a brave man to file a complaint about that!

I've seen a Concorde video at Oshkosh. There seemed plenty of room for a landing. The Public Address was very vocal on warnings to keep kids ears covered for the departure. I'm sure lots of American plane fans just loved it.

[trumpetfrazz1 89]

44 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I was thinking more of the general public than the professionals who worked on her. I'm sure all of them were chosen for both their skill and dedication. Yes, they did do things that BA wouldn't have done with one very notable example in 2000 but there's no need to dwell on that.

A nickname of 'Animal' speaks volumes. Must have been a Muppet fan! What a pity the Wentworth event couldn't have been filmed. It would now be on YT will a view count of millions! I always thought the final Concorde flight into Heathrow in October 2003 should have performed a touch 'n go. It would be a brave man to file a complaint about that!

I've seen a Concorde video at Oshkosh. There seemed plenty of room for a landing. The Public Address was very vocal on warnings to keep kids ears covered for the departure. I'm sure lots of American plane fans just loved it.

The runway was extended later but the first landing is on there somewhere too because the US media made it a big event.  It was tight but safe and legal - he probably used max reverse as opposed to normal though!

Everyone was hoping the last "Flight Manager Technical" would pull something special on the last flight, but like his managerial status he did the corporate thing and a normal landing... He was probably still miffed at the two crews who did a parallel landing a few weeks before, and they got one heck of a ticking off by all accounts but good on them.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,989]

Frazz, I shall have a search for Concorde + Oshkosh.

i suppose if he was continuing his career on lesser aircraft he probably didn’t want to upset anyone or he could end up doing the holiday flights to Ibiza and Majorca! 😁

[trumpetfrazz1 89]

18 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Frazz, I shall have a search for Concorde + Oshkosh.

i suppose if he was continuing his career on lesser aircraft he probably didn’t want to upset anyone or he could end up doing the holiday flights to Ibiza and Majorca! 😁

Desk flyer then retirement (might have converted to 'buses briefly)...not liked by some on the fleet latterly. Nuff said. 

[Chock 17,769]

11 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I suspect that it will be a long time before we ever see a replacement for Concorde.

Or maybe it might be in five years time, since a scale prototype is already under construction:

https://boomsupersonic.com/overture

Edited May 12, 2020 by Chock

[BAWV12 0]

Check opensource Flightgear Concorde :

 

She is not as fancy as FSL one, but usable.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by BAWV12

[trumpetfrazz1 89]

10 hours ago, Chock said:

Or maybe it might be in five years time, since a scale prototype is already under construction:

https://boomsupersonic.com/overture

Yes, I keep an eye on this one but still not a direct replacement and who's going to buy it at the moment...?

It seems whenever a new advancement happens in aviation, a big world event brings it down a peg.

[Paul K 1,348]

On 5/8/2020 at 11:53 AM, Ray Proudfoot said:

Aeroplane Heaven have announced this morning they are developing Concorde for P3Dv4.5, v5 and Microsoft Flight Simulator.

I have no experience of their products. Do they produce quality aircraft given Concorde is one of the most complex aircraft ever developed.

My experience with Aeroplane.Heaven is such that with any of their models, I recommend you await the views and reviews of the flight sim community. Personally, after the C-46 Commando,I doubt I'll buy anything more from them, but I keep an open mind. As I say, don't buy on the first day - gather information over the following few months, and see what the overall impression is.