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Guest Thad

FSX NOT faster with DX10?

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Hi Folks, At the risk of incurring the displeasure of the moderator for double posting, may I draw your attention to the Inquirer website article:http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35436"G80, Geforce 8800 GTX is very CPU dependent. Unless you overclock your CPU, you won't get the right performance delta. If you test 3Dmark06 with a 1000MHz overclocked Core 2 Quad or Duo you get 11300 marks. When you test an 8800GTX on a non-overclocked CPU at 2.66GHz you score about 8000+ with 3Dmark06, almost identical to our score with 7950 GX2, the two GPU card. We are sure that this is just the case for 3Dmark and that games will benefit more. Don't say that we haven't warned you - you will need a faster CPU to push this card to its limits".If this is true, DX10 may not be the magic bullet for FSX frame rates, as frame rates will not be much higher than with the best of the current generation of video cards (7950 GX2).Cheers,Noel.

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From what I read, the shader processing capabilities are signifantly more potent. Get DX10 shaders and DX10 cards, and I bet things will go fast. But who knows.

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I'm running a 7950GX2 (1GB video) with an AMD FX-60 dual core...and am getting great frame rates (40-50fps) with normal autogen/2M terrain res/max complexity/50% traffic. I've applied about half of the recommended tweaks. However, I still can't get much above 15-20fps at most large/detailed airports--KATL, KLAX, KSEA, KDTW, KJFK, etc.I overclocked the 7950 which comes factory default with 550Mhz clock speed--I downloaded nTune from Nvidia and also adjusted BIOS--I've got the card running at 612Mhz with a temp increase of 4-5 degrees (average 65-70 degrees after 5-6 hours of FSX). As a data point, 7950 performance will be impacted at temps 110-120 degrees. I gained about 5fps with a 3% overclock of the GPU. I've found with my setup GPU clock speed is a more important variable than video memory.I haven't attempted to overclock CPU...cost/benefit is dicey but you're spot on...the biggest factor in increasing FSX performance is CPU. I understood another advantage of DX10 would be to make it easier for coders to utilize dual core processing capabilities which may help performance as well.RakeAMD FX-60Nvidia 7950 GX2 (1GB) video4GB ultra low latency RAMRaptor 10000rpm 150GB HDDell 24" wide (running FSX in 1950x1200 res)

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If you OC your cpu to 5GHz of P4 equivalent, you will get much better frame rate. At this time, your gfx card is probably under ultilized. How many degree does temp increase from idle to under load? In FS9, my gfx's temp increases at least 10 degree C. However, with FSX, it increases only less than 5 degree C.

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As we've explained several times, DX10 alone isn't going to make FSX faster. We have to release a DX10 update for FSX to take advantage of the DX10 features first. Then you will get both performance improvements and new visual effects.

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>If this is true, DX10 may not be the magic bullet for FSX>frame rates, as frame rates will not be much higher than with>the best of the current generation of video cards (7950 GX2).You made a small (or should I say BIG) mistake in your conclusion, I'm afraid: they've tested the card with current software and... DX10 isn't available yet. So, as the article says, the Geforce 8800 GTX is very CPU dependent and THAT'S IT! This tells us really NOTHING at all about DX10 or FS X!

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First, the source for this info is, "The Inquirer", enough said there.Second, the benchmarks may change quite a bit when you pair a fast CPU with a DX10 OS (Vista) and game capable of utilizing the DX10 API, namely FSX(DX10).-Thad

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Why all the hypothesizing? If you like FSX now and can run it - play it. If you can't go back to FS9.Wait for DX10, the patch from MS/Aces and a compatible graphics card in the next 6-12 months. If FSX is then not to your pleasure then you can b*tch and moan. No-one knows what improvements will be made until this stuff is out there and being tested!

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>As we've explained several times, DX10 alone isn't going to>make FSX faster. We have to release a DX10 update for FSX to>take advantage of the DX10 features first. Then you will get>both performance improvements and new visual effects.Brian do you believe performance will increase 6-8 times more with DirectX 10...As Microsoft have claimed...

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>>Wait for DX10, the patch from MS/Aces Oh and how much do you know about this 'patch', and where did you read that one has been promised?Was it the same scource that has told you how good DX10 will be?Now where was I when I saw that flying saucer......................Face up to it, MS has really 'cocked up' this time. Where else would anyone possibly hope to get away with a game that no one can run properly?God help us when PMDG and others, come out with their new sims that will tax our set-ups even more than is happening with now our default twitchy, unrealistic aircraft?

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There's a really simple way to get a nice FSX experience; it's called an upgrade. Every release of FS requires new hardware, and this release is no different. All the DX10 hype is basically just wishfull thinking. I'm sure at some future point FSX will will be just as impressive as FS9 is on my new PC, but I see no point in waiting, what - a year maybe? untill DX10 exists, along with Vista, new GPU's and even higher powered CPU's. I mean, FSX is a XP/DX9 product isn't it?There are loads and loads of posts about how nicely FSX is performing, and it's countered by countless people complaining their hi-spec 1 year old PC won't make FSX run well. For those that are unhappy; have a look at the spec of the posters getting a good experience and take a look at your owm. I know sod all about hardware, but I found during the FSX beta that my 3 1/2 year old PC was total crap! A week spent looking around these forums told me what I needed and I got someone to build it to my specs.Needless to say, I think FSX is very nice indeed, and of course it's only going to get better...just as all other FS releases have done in the past. One quick improvement is to jump the date on to get winter textures, goodness only knows where world in autumnal desert textures comes from. It won't improve performance, but it certainly looks better ;-)Edit: Sorry, PC spec might have been usefull to add.Asus P5W DH DeluxCore

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>Brian do you believe performance will increase 6-8 times more>with DirectX 10...As Microsoft have claimed...>>6-8 TIMES increase or 6-8 Frames increase.... I highly doubt ANY kind of tweak be it hardware or software is going to do that... essentially if I get 20 frames I can expect 120 to 160 frames with those M$ claims...

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According to my reading, DX10 shifts more of the rendering pipeline to the GPU, but no matter what, we'll still be constrained by the ability of a CPU to process a single threaded app- in this case FSX.It looks like we have passed the time where single CPU's will really increase raw performance. Moving to multiple cores (Quad should hit this month for x86) leads me to believe that unless there is an architecture change, the performance gain is now through threading and cooperative multitasking (as opposed to preemptive multitasking).More cores over more threads = better performance.Now we all know that FSX is more or less single threaded. Multithreaded apps are a real challenge, but it is clearly where FSXI needs to go.From what I'm reading, there is not a lot of performance gain between my Athlon 3200+, 1GB ram X800XL system to a new top of the line multicore system. Sure you can run superPi much faster than I, but Pi does me no good :) I want to run FSX at decent framerates, and I can in many places. Sure my autogen is turned down, but I'm running large global textures, AS6.5, and 100% AI (Why not!)The ony stuff that slows me down (and it slows me down!) are complex airports with lots of objects. I can fly in to Boston fine, but LAX, LHR, CDG are barely 5FPS. Most other airports are passable. So for now I need to fly like Southwest or Ryanair- secondary airports. Sure DAL is fine, but DFW is not.I'm not sure that even ACES knows just what the DX10 rendering pipeline will yield for us. As much as I'd like new features and graphical bells and whistles, Give my what we have now, but at higher framerates when we need them- on short final. Then talk to me about adding features.I really like FSX- to the point that I have not flown at all in FS9 since installing it. I don;t have a lot of time in FSX yet, and I do miss my Boeings (PMDG and LDS), but the 738 is pretty good for a default jet. I'm waiting to upgrade my PC for a quality upgrade that will yield real benefit in FSX along with other apps. I do not want to do a placeholder upgrade- nor would my wife go for that unless I got a second job!

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"All the DX10 hype is basically just wishfull thinking."Prove it....

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>>>>Wait for DX10, the patch from MS/Aces >>Oh and how much do you know about this 'patch', and where did>you read that one has been promised?>Was it the same scource that has told you how good DX10 will>be?Gee, might it have been in this very thread?"As we've explained several times, DX10 alone isn't going to make FSX faster. We have to release a DX10 update for FSX to take advantage of the DX10 features first. Then you will get both performance improvements and new visual effects.-Brian @ Aces"Your skepticism might be understandable had it (the "promised DX10 update" not been mentioned in this very thread... ;)

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>Your skepticism might be understandable had it (the "promised>DX10 update" not been mentioned in this very thread... ;)Bill, then tell me why a sim was written with DX9 for a card that nobody has, or knows the potential of?It's a bit hard for us to understand? Why couldn't they just have wrote a great new flightsim for the use of all of us instead of for hardware that dosen't even exist?

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>>Your skepticism might be understandable had it (the>"promised>>DX10 update" not been mentioned in this very thread... ;)>>Bill, then tell me why a sim was written with DX9 for a card>that nobody has, or knows the potential of?>>It's a bit hard for us to understand? Why couldn't they just>have wrote a great new flightsim for the use of all of us>instead of for hardware that dosen't even exist?Dave, you've simply dodged the point. You questioned the veracity of the promised DX10 upgrade. I pointed to the "promise" in this very thread.Now, you raise an unrelated question that doesn't even make sense... FSX was written to exploit features of DX9.0c which everyone has. Granted, not everyone's video card can handle the full set of DX9.0c Shaders, but fallbacks are provided for them to use instead.

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Hi Brian,I don't know if you are in the position to answer my questions. It is OK if either you don't know the answers or you can't disclose. Here are my questions.1) Does the DX10 patch use geometric shaders? If it does, will the autogen trees still be relevant as the forest will be done with said shaders instead of placing individual trees. That also mean we can just turn off the generic autogen trees (not custom autogen trees) completely and still see 3D forests.2) Does the DX10 patch use the 'stream out' feature? This is the real performance boost, and it will make DX10 lives up to its expectation. It enables objects sent to the gfx card to be reused. This is a very hugh saving in cpu cycles and pci-e bandwidth.RegardsWai

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No they claimed up to 8 times faster! and the video is on gamespot under FSX if you want to watch it......

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> Granted, not everyone's video card can handle the full set of DX9.0c Shaders, > but fallbacks are provided for them to use instead.No, your getting confused here. FSX was not developed to use the current shader model 3. It uses SM2, so theres no "fallback" regarding the shaders.

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FSX is CPU limited. I reduced the clock on my gfx card by half, nothing changed to the frame rate.

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>"All the DX10 hype is basically just wishfull thinking.">>Prove it....And you prove the reverse. The card doesn't exist yet so yes, a lot of wisfull thinking. Michael J.

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There's the catch. If they claimed "up to 8 times faster" that means from 0 times to 8 times faster. It's very easy to claim that and it's done all the time. Just pay some attention to the commercial breaks next time you watch TV; "Save up to 50%". In fact they have not promised anything.I would love to see the company stating "you can expect no less than 8 times the performance" or "Save more than 50%"Caveat emptor indeed.Cheers,

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>If they claimed "up to 8 times faster" that means from>0 times to 8 times faster. Mats, of course you are right. It is like going walking to a store and seeing a signup to 50% off only to find out that the item you want is not on sale. :-lolMichael J.

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