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scott967

FSX --- KSTL ILS is reported incorrectly??

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Can anyone verify this?In Map View, KSTL Runway 30L ILS is reported as being 110.55.That is not correct in the sim. 110.55 is the LOC/DME in the sim.The correct ILS freq in the sim for 30L at KSTL is 111.50.I learned that the hard way tonight trying to land in a snowstorm.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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>It is 111.5 in real life. See:>Hello JozefYes I know it is 111.5 in real life, and luckily it is also 111.5 in the sim.But go to Map View, and look at what it reports for KSTL rwy 30L. It will say 110.55. Or maybe your version of FSX does not?? I'd like someone to confirm this.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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ILS for 30L 302 degrees 111.5 IBKY. you should be at 2200' at MOIDD Glide Slope initial entry is 2162'

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It seems like they are both in the game, and if you look closely at the map they are both there, but it seems like only IFXD 110.55 is present as part of KSTL in the default file. I have to assume that MS accidently put it into another airport, but at the correct location.scott s..

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Don't look at the map.Look to the left of the map, in the text display that shows runway and ILS data.You will see 110.55 as the freq for the 30L ILS. That is not correct data. 110.55 appears to be the LOC/DME. The ILS, while in the sim, is not reported in the text display.At least that's what my FSX shows. :)Maybe I'll post a screenie of it...RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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>Hi Rhett,>>Just checked it in FSX (in Map View). It says:>ILS 30L (IBKY)>111.50>heading 302>JozefLook at my screen shot (attached). On my FSX, it shows ILS 30L (IFXD)110.55heading 302http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/162411.jpgWhat is going on???RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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As I said, when you look at the code for the default KSTL, it has IFXD as the ILS for 30L. I have not found yet which file contains the IBKY. I'm not sure about this, but I think you could put an ILS in any airport, and it would show up at the location listed in the code, even if it is not physically at that airport. At least that is my assumption.scott s..

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What you are looking at is the LDA approach for 30L and not the ILS approach fot KSTL.I agree that the MAP chart should say IBKY 111.50 for the ILS to rwy 30L but it is reading the LDA IFXD 110.55 instead. That can be fixed in the code.There are 2 LDA LOC/DME approaches for St. Louis and sometimes FS9/FSX has a hard time distinguishing between them and a true ILS.In the FS9/FSX approach code a LDA is also a ILS with out the GP in most cases. When a airport has a LDA and ILS approach for the same runway never read the data on the left side of the MAP view. ALways place the mouse arrow over the large green triangle and leave it there for a few seconds. The correct IBKY 111.50 will be displayed so you know what freq to tune to for the ILS.If you place the mouse arrow over the LDA large green arrow which is to the left of the IBKY green ILS triangle (in MAP Mode) you will see IFXD 110.55. This is the LDA and what is listed to the left of the MAP mode.If you choose 110.55 for the ILS 30L remember you are flying a ILS that is really a LDA without GP just LOC/DME and you will not align perfectly to the runway (LDA is a offset ILS). Please read the charts on AIRNAV (ILS vs LDA 30L and 12R) to understand the full picture.Also the KSTL FSX is not current as per the lastest Jeppesen Approach Charts. Approach Freq. and ILS/LDA IDENT have changed since FSX was develeoped.

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I am going to see if I can't fix this text data in the facilities.bgl or whichever file I discover it is in. I will see if BGLAnalyzeX can read the appropriate file.110.55 is flat wrong for the ILS. It's the LOC/DME as was said.So 110.55 should not be mis-reported as being the ILS rwy 30L freq.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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Jim -- thanks for chiming in here. I can't find the I-BKY in the file using BGLAnalyzeX.scott s..

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The list that you are looking at (left side of the MAP) and the one you have the big red arrow on is not a list that tells you that the runway has a ILS with LOC/GP and/or DME. It is only a list that says a ILS IDENT is assigned to a particular runway in FS9/FSX. MS uses the term ILS IDENT somewhat loosely in the MAP mode. The letters ILS (MS/FS) does not always mean it is a precision approach and it is going to lead you to the threshold of a runway when minimums at the airport are being reported.You can do one of 2 things once you look at the listOpen the default GPS reciever to interpret what the ILS Ident in MAP mode is telling you. GPS in FS9/FSX says the ILS IDENT's are as follows from the MAP modeILS 06 110.30ILS 12R 109.70ILS 12L 108.90ILS 24 110.30ILS 30R 111.30LOC 30L 110.55 <------ I-FXDWhen you tuned the ILS IDENT freq to 110.55 using the MAP mode list, your morse code reported that as I-FXD which is a LOCALIZER + DME only and no Glidepath (GP). The Approach Chart tells you that is a Instrument Landing System (LOC) using a Localizer Type Directional Aid (LDA) offset inbound localizer degree heading with no GP. Some LDA's do have GP. Do you have current Approach plates?That is the second choice and the one that should always be used. If you don't have approach charts then you must always look deeper to see the complete list of ILS IDENT's and you will find the elusive ILS LOCGP I-BKY transmitting on 111.50 as published in FS9/FSX.Here is the complete list in FS9/FSX minus any GPS, RNAV, VOR, NDB'sRwy - 6 --- LOC+GP+DME - IJAK - 110.30 - 062.8 - ILS/DME 06Rwy - 12L - LOC+GP+DME - ILDZ - 108.90 - 122.3 - CAT II ILS/DME 12LRwy - 12L - LOC+DME ---- IABW - 110.10 - 122.3 - LOC/DME 12LRwy - 12R - LOC+GP ----- ILMR - 109.70 - 122.3 - ILS 12RRwy - 24 -- LOC+GP+DME - ISTL - 110.30 - 242.8 - ILS/DME 24Rwy - 30L - LOC+GP ----- IBKY - 111.50 - 302.3 - ILS 30LRwy - 30L - LOC+DME ---- IFXD - 110.55 - 302.3 - LOC/DME 30LRwy - 30R - LOC+GP+DME - ISJW - 111.30 - 111.3 - CAT II ILS/DME 30RAre all of these on your MAP mode List? NO!FS9/FSX does not allow 2 different ILS nested under one runway end which is where the MAP List gets its information from. However FS9/FSX will allow a ILS and a LOC (LDA) which is a non-precision Instrument Landing System for the same runway end as long as one is nested under the runway properties and one is nested in the Approach data.Here is the ILS code for Runway 30L which is the LDA with only LOC/DME and no GP Here is a portion of the approach code which shows I-BKY which is the ILS with LOC/GP no DMEChange the Runway ILS to look like this and your MAP List will read what you want it to <------------------- This Line You must now rewrite all the approach data to sync the IAF/FAF TERMINAL_WAYPOINTS to the correct ILS/LDA or when you start FS9/FSX it will crash to desktop (CTD).hope this helps

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did yo get that using BGLAnalyzeX? Because I see that approach, but I don't get the recommendedTye or Ident attributes. And where is the data for IBKY defined?scott s..

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ScottNewBGLAnalyze/ BGLAnalyzeX have always missed certain parts of the Approach code in the bgl. BGLX180/190 can't decompile certain legtypes and taxiway signs.You have to use both decompilers and piece together what each one does not show.BGLX180/190 will always show recommendedType/ Ident in the Approach code including other code but misses CA/CF type legs.Decompile the FS9 APnnnnnnn.bgl with BGLX180 to see I-BKY which is the ILS for 30L. The Approach code in FS9 and FSX did not change except for new /additional Waypoints per Jeppesen.BGLX190 is still buggy with some of the FSX bgl's.AFCAD always reads both the ILS runway properties and then looks for any stray type approach code ILS. KSTL, PHNL, KSNA, and others have several ILS assigned to the same runway end. This is why AFCAD will place 2 ILS symbols on the grid (same runway end) even though only one ILS can belong to a runway property.I agree with Mace that MS should have swap the ILS and the LDA so the MAP mode read the ILS with LOC/GP instead of the ILS (LDA) with just LOC/DME. I am finishing a KATL FSX and have KSTL slotted next. Will swap the Idents when I update KSTL. I uploaded KJAX to AVSIM with XML source code so everyone could see a 100 percent FSX compliant airport. Those FS9 to FSX AFCADs converters that are showing up don't work because only one decompiler is being used.

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Good information. Good thread here.Now that I know how MAP mode works, I will dig deeper next time I am doing an ILS approach and things seem strange. I would think, for the CASUAL USER, (which is the user Microsoft has tried to bring into this sim with this new version), that Microsoft would want the glideslope ILS to appear in the map window. But that's just me. :)I do in fact now have the approach plates of KSTL. But I doubt the casual FS user would.I was not aware of another decompiler besides BGLAnalyzeX. I will have to look into this.Incidentally, KSTL (like KATL) has a new runway that is, of course, too new to appear in FSX's default data. It's west of the rest of the airport and it has a tunnel with road underneath it. I live about 1.5 hours from KSTL so I have kept tabs on the construction a little. When the first plane landed on the new rwy they did a big article in the St. Louis Post-Disgrace about it.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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>I am finishing a KATL FSX and have KSTL slotted next. Will>swap the Idents when I update KSTL. I uploaded KJAX to AVSIM>with XML source code so everyone could see a 100 percent FSX>compliant airport. Those FS9 to FSX AFCADs converters that are>showing up don't work because only one decompiler is being>used. Tonight I captured a poly near KSTL's new runway out of Google Earth for use in FS_KML.I am not sure how much of that area near I-270 on the west side of the new area is taken. The Google Earth shot is a little dated and only shows it under const. AirNav has a newer aerial pic which might be of some assistance.Next time I'm in St. Louis I will drive up there and see what it looks like. Used to be a nice plane spotting place just west of 12R.I am going to play around with KSTL's new runway and see if I can't add a background poly for it into FSX.If you're doing something with KSTL then I won't do too much. :) I mainly want to get a feel for the process of using GE, and FS_KML and so forth...RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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RhettDraw the poly in GE saving with this tag in propertiesAirport_Backgrounds_Flatten_MaskClassMapThat translates to the {5A7F944C-3D79-4E0C-82F5-04844E5DC653} GUID in fsx_KML.That will give you the correct airport ground texture and remove autogen. Flatten upward in Meters with the elevation tab in GE so it agrees with KSTL elevation.I used that for KATL's ground texture where the new 10/28 runway goes.I-285 goes under 10/28 also but at this time extrusion bridges don't work on taxiway's, just runways. Taxiways always draws the terrain upward. I had to stop the many lanes of road traffic on both sides of 10/28 in Cell LOD13.

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>Rhett>>Draw the poly in GE saving with this tag in properties>Yes...JimLast night I was able to create the ground poly, using GE to draw the outline and also FS_KML. I matched the elevations too.Then I used BGLCOMP and using AirNav data I put in the new runway with markings and lighting and approach lights at KSTL. Technically it's a sloping runway but of course I did not do that.It looks good. FS_KML is a godsend and will really open scenery design up to a lot of people I think. Perhaps later I will post a screenshot of what I've done so far.Too bad the GE image is not up-to-date. It does not show the taxiways, etc. Is there any good way you can think of, to where I can map out the taxiway locations?If I used GE to trace them, I'd just be guessing, since they don't show on the aerial photo GE has.>>I-285 goes under 10/28 also but at this time extrusion bridges>don't work on taxiway's, just runways. Taxiways always draws>the terrain upward. I had to stop the many lanes of road>traffic on both sides of 10/28 in Cell LOD13. KSTL's new runway also has a road going under it via a tunnel...Lindbergh Street. I'm not crossing that bridge (no pun intended) right now though. :) If you look at FSX's default KDFW, in real life it has tunnels going under taxiways, but in the sim, Microsoft didn't bother making those. And that's on a high detail airport. So it must not be too easy to do. I'm not even sure if it's possible. Maybe a fake tunnel would do, like a black hole in the side of a hill, with a road leading up to it.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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>NewBGLAnalyze/ BGLAnalyzeX have always missed certain parts of the >Approach code in the bgl.>BGLX180/190 can't decompile certain legtypes and taxiway signs.didn't know about BGLX190. Any link to it?If I understand, you actually used the FS9 AP9 airport to dope out what was set up for KSTL and are using that for FSX?scott s.

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>>NewBGLAnalyze/ BGLAnalyzeX have always missed certain parts>of the >Approach code in the bgl.>>>BGLX180/190 can't decompile certain legtypes and taxiway>signs.>>didn't know about BGLX190. Any link to it?>>If I understand, you actually used the FS9 AP9 airport to dope>out what was set up for KSTL and are using that for FSX?>>scott s>.I can't tell from your post if you were meaning to respond to Jim, or to me. I too know nothing about this "BGLX190".But you asked me what I did to make KSTL's new rwy...I did not use any FS9 tools.I used BGLCOMP, included in the FSX SDK, to make the runway, runway lights, markings, etc. at KSTL's new runway. To do that you have to make an xml file of what you want and then run it thru the BGLCOMP compiler.I used FS_KML to make the background poly from a Google Earth source.I'll post a screen here later tonight of what I did. I need to re-work the background poly and my exclude of Lindbergh Blvd. though.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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>>If I understand, you actually used the >FS9 AP9 airport to dope out what was set >up for KSTL and are using that for FSX?>ScottThe other way around Strip out the APXnnnnnn.bgl so AFCAD will read it.Such areas as ScalerTest radiusfreq'sChange Vehicle to Closed so AFCAd will show the ground support tracks.etc.Now the AFCAD will show the FSX airport as a visual graph on the grid. Made all changes and then merged the decompiled AFCAD back into the APXnnnnnn.bglBGLX 190 is buried deep down into a Pete Dowson postGo to post #44 to get BGLX_190.zipGo further down to post #47 and get Objects.zip which is a listing of the GUIDs from the FSX library objects list converted back to the old plain string syntax so that they can be placed with FS9 tools if needed.http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2921 @MaceI use Jeppesen but Airnav charts work for the new taxiway layout. Once you have AFCAD working for FSX add the taxiways and all other airport changes.Save back to a FSX compliant bgl. Las Vegas also has a tunnel in real world and FSX stops traffic on both sides of the runway just like all other airports I checked.

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Jim/Scott/rest of you :)After an evening of fiddling, I have produced a very imperfect proof-of-concept alpha-stage KSTL with the new runway. Here's a pic:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/162640.jpgIt has some issues right now (I'm sure you can see some of them) but at least now I know how it all works.The biggest oddity is that KSTL's stock taxiways all disappeared on me. Still not sure what's going on there.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2530 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8, WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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Jim:OK, after going through the APX23180 file in hex, I see that in the NAVAID 0x0013 section, both of the ILS records are there for ILS 30L and LOC/DME 30L. Interesting is that the runway record AFAIK only allows for a primary and secondary end ILS. I haven't tried, but I wonder if BGLComp will let you build such a runway with 2 secondary ILS entries? I see tht the only linkage is that the runway record encodes the ILS ident and runway end; all the other data is actually in the ILS record (I guess this makes sense).scott s..

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