UK airports - Manchester - what??

[Mike S KPDX 598]

Ok, full disclosure, I almost always fly in the US.  So, with the new update I am thinking 'why not go look around a bit'.  Well, I booted up at Manchester Airport just as a random selection.  After I selected a gate I found myself at an area with no terminal or jetway near me.  I am thinking, ok this is just a glitch. Restarted again and selected another gate - same result.  Well, I don't worry about it and just begin to taxi and found myself at several dead end taxiways.  So know I am thinking this airport is obviously busted in the sim.  For fun I go and check out google maps and low and behold - this is correct??

• taxiway network that makes no sense at all
• taxiway pavement that go nowhere
• longest runway has no parallel taxiway, back taxi? (but surrounded by farmland)
• pax loading gates in the middle of the ramp (how do they get there?)
• a round-about - really!
• random grass island in the middle of the major ramp
• ramps in the middle of grass islands

I could go on and on, but really, go look at it.  It is surprising as this in kind of an open area so reasonable expansion planning could have happened.  I was very surprised as I thought this was a quite odd for a larger airport in the country.  I did not look at Heathrow, only because I am now scared too.  I know places like Chicago Midway is kind of strange, but not like this.  So it was back to Portland Oregon or Denver Colorado for me.

Is this a European thing or just a UK thing?  Is there a better example of a coherently designed airport in these areas?  It does have some nice interiors according to the photos linked to it in google maps, so there's that.  Not to get anyone mad, more of just a fun jab (my mother was British) but I am curious.  Again, please don't take offense.

All comments welcome.

 

[Will Fly For Cheese 1,710]

We're just eccentric that's all.

Chock will be along shortly to clear up any problems. This is absolutely his neck of the woods.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Will Fly For Cheese

[Paladin2005 442]

Some times i think some flight sim guys need a break.

Really what?

Just look at some other airports. No reason for panic becase the layout of ONE european airport does not fit your expectations.

 

Dscheeeeesus!

[Chock 17,769]

Manchester began construction in 1935 and commenced operations in 1937, so it is a very long-established airport; they never had any idea it would end up with twin two-mile-long runways and loads of different terminal buildings, which is why in places it can look a bit of a hotch-potch, but it does all make sense when you work there.

Originally, it was built to expand upon the capabilities of Manchester's first airport, which was Barton Aerodrome (now City Airport Manchester - EGCB - and one of the fancy detailed ones in MSFS). EGCC Manchester International used to be called Ringway Airport (and still is by some locals), which is the name of a small area up the road from it near Wilmslow. In WW2 it was RAF Ringway and was a training base for paratroops and used for other operations with training SOE agents for clandestine parachute drops into France (i.e. the spies and secret agents in WW2), as well as being a main construction site for AVRO Lancasters and several other types, since a lot of aviation industry was in and around the North West (hence all those bombers having names of northern towns, including the Lancaster originally having been the twin-engined Manchester.

Just up the road from Manchester the was Woodford Aerodrome - now disused - but still evident from the air near the WFD beacon if you fly over that, since part of the runway remains and there is the AVRO museum there with a Vulcan parked up outside it. Woodford is where they also made numerous aeroplane types and is the airfield seen in the movie '633 Squadron' where they filmed a lot of a belly landings of Mosquitos for the movie by taxying them at high speed across the field and then retracting the landing gear. It's also where I keep my horse, Snorky. 🙂

As a result of all this old aviation heritage, Manchester has expanded over the years and that has led to it having a fairly unusual layout in places. For a realistic depiction of it (since the one in MSFS is only vaguely similar), you'd want the Macco sims version. It's worth noting that Manchester is also currently undergoing a lot of alterations to parts such as the cargo ramp area (Stands 65 through to 73). 

With regard to the remote stands with the grass island, this is not as odd as it seems. that's the bit where you can see a line of airliners visible if you look underneath the Thomas Cook A330:

Note the construction cranes on the new terminal in the distance and the fact that we were there working on stuff early in the morning. At a guess I would say I was on maybe stand 68 there at about 6am.

What tends to happen with that bit, is aeroplanes which are stopping overnight are not typically left on the main stands with jet bridges, since this prevents other aeroplanes from using those stands, so after they are unloaded, they are given a request by the airport authority that they should be towed off the stand by a specific time, and that's the kind of thing I used to do a lot at night, where we would tow them off to those remote stands, freeing up the stands with jet bridges. Then in the morning, we might tow them back off the remote stands onto a stand with a bridge, or sometimes the passengers would be bussed to the remote stand and we'd use steps on the aeroplanes at those remote stands.

Some of the layout is geared toward facilitating easier cargo operations, such as stand 65 through to 70+, and some of it is geared toward maintenance, such as down from stand 65 in front of the big Jet 2 and Thomas Cook Hangars which are located at a place known as the Fairey Apron, since it was where Fairey Engineering had a facility (makers of the Swordfish, Battle, Barracuda etc). Behind that set of hangars is the vehicle maintenance area and behind that is a museum where the first Concorde (G-BOAC) can be seen.

So it all makes a bit more sense when you know how the place operates and you have a bit better scenery for the place. You are however correct about one of the runways (23L/05R) not having a parallel taxiway all the way down it, but since there are twin runways, it is easy to simply have stuff backtrack down the runway for 05 departures. This is in fact why it has a 60 metre high control tower, to enable this to be seen clearly and also has very comprehensive ground radar.

You can see the planes landing and departing from the runway at Liverpool airport from up in that control tower and places such as Jodrell Bank with its massive radio telescope, and you can actually make out the curve of the earth when observing planes coming over the Pennines at night, because they are dropping away over the curve when very distant and the nav lights on them make this very apparent. Sadly, they don't let flat earthers up there, so they'll just have to take my word for it on that one. 🤣

Edited May 1, 2021 by Chock

[cavaricooper 2,615]

Check out MaccoSim EGCC

[pscharff 56]

46 minutes ago, cavaricooper said:

Check out MaccoSim EGCC

👍

EGCC - Manchester Airport - Macco Simulations

Patric

[Mike S KPDX 598]

1 hour ago, Chock said:

Manchester began construction in 1935 and commenced operations in 1937, so it is a very long-established airport, so they never had any idea it would end up with twin two-mile-long runways and loads of different terminal buildings, which is why in places it can look a bit of a hotch-potch, but it does all make sense when you work there.

Originally, it was built to expand upon the capabilities of Manchester's first airport, which was Barton Aerodrome (now City Airport Manchester - EGCB - and one of the fancy detailed ones in MSFS). EGCC Manchester International used to be called Ringway Airport (and still is by some locals), which is the name of a small area up the road from it near Wilmslow. In WW2 it was RAF Ringway and was a training base for paratroops and used for other operations with training SOE agents for clandestine parachute drops into France (i.e. the spies and secret agents in WW2), as well as being a main construction site for AVRO Lancasters and several other types, since a lot of aviation industry was in and around the North West (hance all those bombers having names of northern towns, including the Lancaster originally having been the twin-engined Manchester.

Just up the road from Manchester the was Woodford Aerodrome - now disused - but still evident from the air near the WFD beacon if you fly over that, since part of the runway remains and there is the AVRO museum there with a Vulcan parked up outside it. Woodford is where they also made numerous aeroplane types and is the airfield seen in the movie '633 Squadron' where they filmed a lot of a belly landings of Mosquitos for the movie by taxying them at high speed across the field and then retracting the landing gear. It's also where I keep my horse, Snorky. 🙂

As a result of all this old aviation heritage, Manchester has expanded over the years and that has led to it having a fairly unusual layout in places. For a realistic depiction of it (since the one in MSFS is only vaguely similar), you'd want the Macca sims version. It's worth noting that Manchester is also currently undergoing a lot of alterations to parts such as the cargo ramp area (Stands 65 through to 73). 

With regard to the remote stands with the grass island, this is not as odd as it seems. that's the bit where you can a line of airliners visible if you look underneath the Thomas Cook A330:

Note the construction cranes on the new terminal in the distance and the fact that we were there working on stuff early in the morning. At a guess I would say I was on maybe stand 68 there.

What tends to happen with that bit, is aeroplanes which are stopping overnight are not typically left on the main stands with jet bridges, since this prevents other aeroplanes from using those stands, so after they are unloaded, they are given a request by the airport authority that they should be towed off the stand by a specific time, and that's the kind of thing I used to do a lot at night, where we would tow them off to those remote stands, freeing up the stands with jet bridges. then in the morning, we might tow them back off the remote stands onto a stand with a bridge, or sometimes the passengers would be bussed to the remote stand and we'd use steps on the aeroplanes at those remote stands.

Some of the layout is geared toward facilitating easier cargo operations, such as stand 65 through to 70+, and some of it is geared toward maintenance, such as down from stand 65 in front of the big Jet 2 and Thomas Cook Hangars which are located at a place known as the Fairey Apron, since it was where Fairey Engineering had a facility (makers of the Swordfish, Battle, Barracuda etc). Behind that set of hangars is the vehicle maintenance area and behind that is a museum where the first Concorde (G-BOAC) can be seen.

So it all makes a bit more sense when you know how the place operates and you have a bit better scenery for the place. You are however correct about one of the runways (23L/05R) not having a parallel taxiway all the way down it, but since there are twin runways, it is easy to simply have stuff backtrack down the runway for 05 departures. This is in fact why it has a 60 metre high control tower, to enable this to be seen clearly and also has very comprehensive ground radar.

You can see the planes landing and departing from the runway at Liverpool airport from up in that control tower and places such as Jodrell Bank with its massive radio telescope, and you can actually make out the curve of the earth when observing planes coming over the Pennines at night, because they are dropping away over the curve when very distant. sadly, they don't let flat earthers up there, so they'll just have to take my word for it on that one. 🤣

Thank you very much on the background.  The developement from a WWII facility to today now make a bit more sense.  Also, the remote parking stands makes sense also, I will have to avoid those 'gates' in the sim.  Well done response, thanks.

btw, is that what they call a 'K' loader in the photo?

Edited May 1, 2021 by Mike S KPDX

[af1134 9]

That's Europe ! Old continent...poor Airports

Cheers from France

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by af1134

[Mike S KPDX 598]

1 hour ago, Paladin2005 said:

Some times i think some flight sim guys need a break.

Really what?

Just look at some other airports. No reason for panic becase the layout of ONE european airport does not fit your expectations.

 

Dscheeeeesus!

no panic, more or a 'thought' question as to commonality.

[Mike S KPDX 598]

Just now, af1134 said:

That's Europe ! Old continent...poor Airports

Cheers from France

 

Good point, in that case what would be a good example of a 'new' hub airport in Europe, something completely built from ground up? (know as a 'greenfield' site in the US)

[Chock 17,769]

44 minutes ago, Mike S KPDX said:

btw, is that what they call a 'K' loader in the photo?

We called them high-loaders (or more commonly hi-los). The make of it is actually an Aerotech Commander.

If you look on that link, you'll see they have a loading platform with ball rollers which can move and rotate ULDs and the platform can be raised. We used them and some smaller ones (which we called skateboards, although those are still fairly big). 

This is the view from a skateboard which I was using to load an Airbus. On it you can see the rotating and swivelling 'teeth' in the floor which can spin and move the ULDs and you can just about make out the rollers in the floor of the Airbus. The floor has a bunch of locking clamps which hold the ULD in place by clamping on the lip around the bottom of the ULD.

You can just about make out the angled bottom of the ULD which allows it to fit in the hold nice and snug and it's the same on the other end too, because the Airbus has only one of these AKH ULD cans across its width. You can also see the hydraulic ram which operates the cargo door via a switch on the underside of the aeroplane. All the switches and levers and stuff on the loader's panel near the steering wheel are for operating the platform, the thing is actually an automatic with a diesel engine, so it's either in reverse or forward and that's it, no gears. These are a pretty tight fit on an Airbus, so they don't let everyone loose on these things because it would be easy to damage the plane if you hit it and you are only about four inches away from the starboard engine with this thing when loading the front cargo hold.

Here's the same plane after I'd finished loading it. This is in the part of Manchester airport which was the original main ramp of the airport in the 1960s before the place was expanded a lot. That looks like stand 43:

Other things you can see on that pic are the FEP (fixed electrical power) which is on the yellow extending pantograph so it can be pulled out to near the aeroplane in order to plug the power in, a tug and bar connected and ready to go, and someone on the headset ready to supervise the pushback and engine start. At that point the main walkaround check will have been completed, but since the jet bridge is still on, when it is retracted, the headset guy will quickly take a look at the airframe on the other side where the bridge was connected, to make sure the bridge didn't damage any probes or the aeroplane's skin, and to make sure the door looks properly closed.

After he's done that, he'll take the chocks off the front wheels (they're already off the mains) and then when the aeroplane's anti-collision beacon goes on, he'll know they have their push and start clearance and will commence the procedure, signalling the tug driver with hand signals and talking to the flight deck crew on the headset. This plane will push back and turn right, then pull forward until it is level with the centre line of stand to the left of this one, which is the TRP (tug release point) for this stand.

When there is about 200 yards of clearance behind it as it is nearing the tug release point, he'll let the crew know they can crank the engines so that the blast from the engines doesn't damage anything behind it. When the engines are stable and he's disconnected the towbar and removed the bypass pin, he'll let them know he's done and then he'll give them a wave and show them the bypass pin with its big red remove before flight flag so they know their steering is no longer bypassed, which it needed to be to allow the tug to steer the aeroplane. If you look very closely, you can just about see the very dirty red streamer of the steering bypass pin dangling down in front of the nose wheel.

Here's a bypass pin, well two actually, one for Boeings, the other for Airbuses. You push the red/blue button on the end and that retracts the pins on the end of the shaft, to let you fit it in the hole on the undercarriage which aligns with a hole on the bypass lever which you pull back so the hole on that aligns with the hole on the landing gear, then when you let go the pins pop back out and stop it falling out and since it is through both holes, it holds the steering bypass leaver open so the nose wheel becomes free-castoring:

Edited May 1, 2021 by Chock

[Mike S KPDX 598]

3 hours ago, Chock said:

We called them high-loaders (or more commonly hi-los). The make of it is actually an Aerotech Commander.

If you look on that link, you'll see they have a loading platform with ball rollers which can move and rotate ULDs and the platform can be raised. We used them and some smaller ones (which we called skateboards, although those are still fairly big). 

This is the view from a skateboard which I was using to load an Airbus. On it you can see the rotating and swivelling 'teeth' in the floor which can spin and move the ULDs and you can just about make out the rollers in the floor of the Airbus. The floor has a bunch of locking clamps which hold the ULD in place by clamping on the lip around the bottom of the ULD.

You can just about make out the angled bottom of the ULD which allows it to fit in the hold nice and snug and it's the same on the other end too, because the Airbus has only one of these AKH ULD cans across its width. You can also see the hydraulic ram which operates the cargo door via a switch on the underside of the aeroplane. All the switches and levers and stuff on the loader's panel near the steering wheel are for operating the platform, the thing is actually an automatic with a diesel engine, so it's either in reverse or forward and that's it, no gears. These are a pretty tight fit on an Airbus, so they don't let everyone loose on these things because it would be easy to damage the plane if you hit it and you are only about four inches away from the starboard engine with this thing when loading the front cargo hold.

Here's the same plane after I'd finished loading it. This is in the part of Manchester airport which was the original main ramp of the airport in the 1960s before the place was expanded a lot. That looks like stand 43:

Other things you can see on that pic are the FEP (fixed electrical power) which is on the yellow extending pantograph so it can be pulled out to near the aeroplane in order to plug the power in, a tug and bar connected and ready to go, and someone on the headset ready to supervise the pushback and engine start. At that point the main walkaround check will have been completed, but since the jet bridge is still on, when it is retracted, the headset guy will quickly take a look at the airframe on the other side where the bridge was connected, to make sure the bridge didn't damage any probes or the aeroplane's skin, and to make sure the door looks properly closed.

After he's done that, he'll take the chocks off the front wheels (they're already off the mains) and then when the aeroplane's anti-collision beacon goes on, he'll know they have their push and start clearance and will commence the procedure, signalling the tug driver with hand signals and talking to the flight deck crew on the headset. This plane will push back and turn right, then pull forward until it is level with the centre line of stand to the left of this one, which is the TRP (tug release point) for this stand.

When there is about 200 yards of clearance behind it as it is nearing the tug release point, he'll let the crew know they can crank the engines so that the blast from the engines doesn't damage anything behind it. When the engines are stable and he's disconnected the towbar and removed the bypass pin, he'll let them know he's done and then he'll give them a wave and show them the bypass pin with its big red remove before flight flag so they know their steering is no longer bypassed, which it needed to be to allow the tug to steer the aeroplane. If you look very closely, you can just about see the very dirty red streamer of the steering bypass pin dangling down in front of the nose wheel.

Here's a bypass pin, well two actually, one for Boeings, the other for Airbuses. You push the red/blue button on the end and that retracts the pins on the end of the shaft, to let you fit it in the hole on the undercarriage which aligns with a hole on the bypass lever which you pull back so the hole on that aligns with the hole on the landing gear, then when you let go the pins pop back out and stop it falling out and since it is through both holes, it holds the steering bypass leaver open so the nose wheel becomes free-castoring:

wow, very cool descriptions and photos.  I knew of the pins but never really have seen them upclose.  On the loader, was box (can) controlled via the rollers (thus no one touching the box) or are they free spinning but you have to push the box around?  I ask because at some point it goes from the loader to the plane and the plane may or may not have that ability?

[Chock 17,769]

57 minutes ago, Mike S KPDX said:

On the loader, was box (can) controlled via the rollers (thus no one touching the box) or are they free spinning but you have to push the box around?  I ask because at some point it goes from the loader to the plane and the plane may or may not have that ability?

Transported on dollies obviously (i.e. trailers), the ongoing ULDs are towed out to the inter-stand clearway (the bit in between the stands well clear of the wingtips) ready for loading. Once you have the high loader driven up to the plane's cargo hold, you use a little tractor to pull the trailers with the ULDs on them, from the clearway up to the lowered platform on the loader (in the correct loading sequence). This is harder than it sounds because the trailers are not the same width as the tractor, so it takes a bit of practice to learn how to judge exactly how to line things up, and of course when you are pulling three big long trailers which might have two ULDs on each trailer, that's a pretty long train of trailers to be maneuvering. Everyone is cack at first when doing this, but pretty soon you figure it out.

When a ULD trailer is aligned with the loader's lowered platform, you release the locks on the trailer which were holding the the ULDs securely on the trailer, then you manually push the ULD off the trailer onto the loading platform of the loader. All of this stuff is coordinated with hand signals between the people working the ULDs and the driver of the tractor and the person on the loader because everyone is wearing ear defenders, so it's a bit like choreography with multiple people doing stuff to have this happen quickly and safely, for example, you never move the tractor without tooting the horn first so that everyone knows to get out of the way of the trailers.

What normally happens when pushing ULDs onto the loader, is the loading platform is dropped down so it is ever so slightly lower than the trailer the ULD is sat on so that it can easily be pushed off the trailer and over the loader's platform by two or three people, then the loading platform is raised a few inches so the rollers on the platform are come into contact with the bottom of the ULD and these powered rollers on the loader can pull it fully onto the loader's platform.

People usually try to push them on the platform the correct way (open end side of the ULD facing forwards in the front hold, facing backward in the rear hold), but if necessary, the loader can rotate the ULDs to facilitate this. The platform is raised up until it is ever so slightly higher than the floor of the aeroplane, then you use the powered rollers to push the ULD into the plane a bit and then drop the platform a bit so the ULD is sat on the aeroplane's rollers, i.e. the same technique you used when getting the ULDs off the trailer. Then you use the aeroplane's powered rollers to pull the ULD in and move it along the hold to where it is supposed to be (according to the load plan for correct weight distribution).

The aeroplane has a set of controls at the side of the doorway which work the aeroplane's cargo hold rollers. Not all planes have a powered system, sometimes they just have manual rollers on the floor, in which case you shove the ULD into place. when a ULD is in its correct position in the hold, you pull some stops up to hold it in place, and you make sure when you are done loading that literally every stop in the hold is up so that there is no possibility for any ULD to shift position in flight for obvious reasons.

ULDs and pallets (the flat alloy things which cargo is strapped to) are made mostly from alloy, so they don't really weight that much when empty. You could easily push one onto a trailer on your own if it was empty, but when they have cargo or bags in them, ULDs generally need perhaps two or three people to shove them onto a loader although if you brace your feet and push with your back, it is just possible to do it on your own. What is really heavy, are the trailers which the ULDs are carried on. These take a lot of strength to pull, so normally you tend to either get a few people to push them, or you'd generally use a little tractor to pull them.

Another thing which is really heavy, is the catering trolleys which you see coming down the aisle with the drinks and food on. You would not believe how hard it is to pick one of those things up and lift it into a Dornier 328 lol, usually the pilots help with doing that, so if you thought BA pilots never have to do any cargo lifting, trust me, they do if they are on those Dorniers, because if they don't, they'll have no trolley service on their flight. 🤣

Edited May 1, 2021 by Chock

[Mike S KPDX 598]

perfect explanation, great read and thank for all of this.  I hope many of us see this thread.

[Christopher Low 5,379]

• taxiway network that makes no sense at all - I have never had a problem with it
• taxiway pavement that go nowhere - maybe old taxiways that have been closed??
• longest runway has no parallel taxiway, back taxi? (but surrounded by farmland) - 23L is used for take offs only. There is another perfectly good runway (23R) for landings, should you decide that you want to approach from that side.
• pax loading gates in the middle of the ramp (how do they get there?) - some access is via jetways, and some is via air stairs
• a round-about - really! - Europe has less of a right angle fetish than the USA
• random grass island in the middle of the major ramp - even pilots like to go for a nice walk across a meadow every now and again
• ramps in the middle of grass islands - I confess. This one was designed to confuse Americans