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Windows Vista - Thumbs down from Carmack

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Pity.... he could have waited for a full DirectX10 release before deciding to spew about it :) I mean, it's like saying a new car is crap before actually taking it out for a REAL spin, not just sitting in it.If anything, I think he's just mad that DX10 is a change that requires his audience to spend a ton of money to go from a high-end Dx9 based system to a medium Dx10 system.... and how MS is implementing the whole thing as a course of action that can't be avoided. (no back compat).Oh well, so Doom4 will be XP and 360 only, that's okay, because FSX3 will be out by then; and most gamers will be DX10 based because all the good games use it :)

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Well, I for one don't consider Carmack a god, he recently spouted off at a rival game producer, now its Vista and DX10.If he wont develop for vista and only XP and X-Box, its no skin off my nose because I don't like his kind of games anyway.

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From reading the comment, I don't believe he said anything about DX10, except that he was unhappy that you have to have vista in order to get it.scott s..

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I don't know if I agree with the angle here (The drama queen "Vista sucks!"-angle). All he's saying is that Vista doesn't really offer something new gaming-wise compared to XP, especially because he thinks MS should release DX10 on XP. Which is kinda true. But when all has been said, DX10 DOES only come with Vista, that is the reality, so... I guess Vista DOES offer something over XP after all... Now, I suppose he prefers OpenGL anyway...

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I think what he is getting at, is that he feels like a king in his empire, and that he shouldn't have to jump thru Billies hoops like the rest of us.Fact is... a new graphics platform will be available only on Vista and forthcoming releases from MS. Developers will either embrace it or drive it into the ground. Most developers out there are absolutely raving about the enhancements that DX10 technology has brought to the industry.... so if 'Id' don't want to utilize it, fine by me :) There will be plenty of other developers who will market DX10 games.There is no future for DX9.... so his options are to get on the bus or go make console games.

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Well I have a test rig with Vista running and it delivers about 50% the performance of XP, both with FSX and FS9. Especially Visa+FSX I cannot get to run smooth anyhwere, even with minimum configuration, no AI stuff etc. So I can only hope there will be some major developments before the release :) Maybe they just delay it until the proper hardware comes along.

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STOP!Before the next person starts spreading uninformed rubbish could they stop and read the actual interview with John Carmack. And by read, and I do mean stop and READ it. Boring I know. So much easier to speak from ignorance.Interview in question:http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200....1737.15034.htmIt's quite an interesting interview and certainly a good read. I read it a couple of days ago and from memory there's not a lot to disagree with John on.

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A message to the forum moderators and to avism in generalSlamming must stop.A dim view should be taken when people really slam this hard. Yes, air a view and say something like, "I'm getting a memory leak when using a dual core and I've not yet seen Aces admit it's there"Say something like "Not sure I agree with John Carmack as we can't verify his findings at this time. Let's hope he's wrong and we don't get suckered in to buying Vista and a new computer to make it work"But please guys stop the personal attacks. I've been the victim of personal attacks countless times, here on avsim but nowhere else, and never are those threads pulled and it really does bring down the atmosphere here at Avsim.Yes, I know sometimes people post when frustrated something like "This FSX is crap I can't get good fps.~" that's understandable, and we all do that sometimes after reformatting our hard drive six times in a month. We've all been there.OK, attack a product sometimes when it's really taking the pee out of us, maybe if it's well over priced and under performs too.Because we are allowed to slam we do slam but if a new rule was brought in that said something like "if a post is considered to be a personal attack at an individual, when the company or product is small may also be considered personal at times, the consequences will be that all parties contributing to the personal attack will be banned for a period of time to allow a cooling off.Why guys are you attacking John Carmak!!!!! He's done nothing wrong and in a court of law some of those remarks could see you guys in serious trouble.And make no mistake, your email address can be traced to you even if you think it can't if you hide behind an alias.John Carmak, could decide to instruct a lawyer to take action against some of these personal remarks, and then Avsim get dragged in to a lawsuit also. This kind of thing does not help anyone and least of all us. In the worst case it could mean Avsim have to close the site for a while.We all need to adjust to a higher moral code of conduct and negative or slamming posters should be given a harsh warning and ultimately banned if they refuse to be more respectful.

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I was running Vista RC1 with FSX for a while. It out performed XP in all areas of the OS, including using FSX. Getting the right drivers was the key. The retail release won't have that problem as most hardware will have decent drivers by then.

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>A message to the forum moderators and to avism in general>>Slamming must stop.>>A dim view should be taken when people really slam this hard.>Yes, air a view and say something like, >>"I'm getting a memory leak when using a dual core and I've not>yet seen Aces admit it's there">>Say something like "Not sure I agree with John Carmack as we>can't verify his findings at this time. Let's hope he's wrong>and we don't get suckered in to buying Vista and a new>computer to make it work">>But please guys stop the personal attacks. I've been the>victim of personal attacks countless times, here on avsim but>nowhere else, and never are those threads pulled and it really>does bring down the atmosphere here at Avsim.>>Yes, I know sometimes people post when frustrated something>like "This FSX is crap I can't get good fps.~" that's>understandable, and we all do that sometimes after>reformatting our hard drive six times in a month. We've all>been there.>>OK, attack a product sometimes when it's really taking the pee>out of us, maybe if it's well over priced and under performs>too.>>Because we are allowed to slam we do slam but if a new rule>was brought in that said something like "if a post is>considered to be a personal attack at an individual, when the>company or product is small may also be considered personal at>times, the consequences will be that all parties contributing>to the personal attack will be banned for a period of time to>allow a cooling off.>>Why guys are you attacking John Carmak!!!!! He's done nothing>wrong and in a court of law some of those remarks could see>you guys in serious trouble.>>And make no mistake, your email address can be traced to you>even if you think it can't if you hide behind an alias.>>John Carmak, could decide to instruct a lawyer to take action>against some of these personal remarks, and then Avsim get>dragged in to a lawsuit also. This kind of thing does not help>anyone and least of all us. In the worst case it could mean>Avsim have to close the site for a while.>>We all need to adjust to a higher moral code of conduct and>negative or slamming posters should be given a harsh warning>and ultimately banned if they refuse to be more respectful.With all due respect, and maybe it's just me, I'll even go along with that maybe there is something wrong with me, and I even agree that continuous trolling should be dealt with, and that there should be a certain etiquette when posting, BUT, I have to say that has got to be one of the weirdest out of the blue things I've read on this forum in a long time...

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I don't think that John Carmack is a bad guy, never said he was. I was speculating that his comments regarding Vista could be applied to his own Doom3 release, and that it's pretty much a hypocritical thing for him to say. But now that the entire interview is available, maybe I would read that and correct my opinion.... instead, I replied to this and wasted some time.I also don't think the he could give a hoot what some unknown says in a forum about him.

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Well, you don't give your name, hardly suprising if you are insulting others, nor do you identify your sex.Nuff said and case proven,You insult me with this remark, which serves no purpose other than to inflame,you insult John calling him a queen and I bet if we did a search for posts made by you over the past months there would be plently of other insults.The only other posts I can find by you are below which come out of context but do show at leat to me an insulting tone. you are either a low poster or you have more than one alias. Either way my message is it's this kind of thing that is being allowed and is causing the tone of the fourm to go south all too often. Anyway below are the only other posts by this alias guy I can find.Quote;Just shut up about x-plane already. We are all simmers, we all know about x-plane, and there's a reason there are different forums for each piece of software... Spew your x-plane advertisements elsewhere please.end quote;quote;Do you know that friend who are constantly repeating the same old story over and over again as if he didn't tell you a million times before..? And just the thought of yet again having to sit through the tediousness the next tim you meet him makes you kind of...cringe...? That is what these forums are starting to feel like to me these days...End quote;Now I fully appriciate that this alias guy with a coded alias that implies he really does not want to easilly be remembered may in fact in person be a really nice guy. b00io or what ever he's called. Nameless either way.I simply think it would be really cool if there could be some way of monitoring this kind of thing better but I do appriciate it's not going to be easy nor practical.So what we've got here is a low poster who uses a lot drama in his remraks and looks to either insult others or inflame and this guy is clearly not posting much that is of use or helpful.Like I say probably the real person, if using his real name, would be much nicer and post with far more consideration to how others feel.Peter

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I didn't think your post was insulting to John.No need to justify your post sir,At least you called or implied John was a "King" which most men would not find insult in.I see nothing wrong with your post, sir. Intelligent and justifed.Forgive me if you though I was aiming my remarks to you sir.Peter Wilding

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>Well, you don't give your name, hardly suprising if you are>insulting others, nor do you identify your sex.>>Nuff said and case proven,>>You insult me with this remark, which serves no purpose other>than to inflame,>>you insult John calling him a queen and I bet if we did a>search for posts made by you over the past months there would>be plently of other insults.>>I expect more insults will come.Wow... All my "drama-queen" (In hindsight I guess I should've written just "drama", but I didn't expect it to turn out to be such an issue) comment was about was the angle in general (Regarding the topic of the thread), it had nothing to do with Carmack. In fact, I honestly thought I was somewhat defending Carmack with my comment where I thought that i clearly stated that I didn't really think he was talking about Vista "sucking" ("thumbs down"). Maybe you should've cleared that misunderstanding with me before coming with odd lawsuit threaths...? Your ad hominem type of rhetoric is baffling me as I don't quite feel that I deserve it. Giving me in even for possible future insults (!) is a way too extreme and unfair in my opinion... But yeah, maybe I'm a agressive #### who deserve to be judged and hanged for my horrible awful wrongdoing on this board. So if that is the general consensus then I will gladly leave if that makes you feel better.Oh, I'm Bjorn from Norway by the way. If you send me a private message I'll give you my full name and address, and even my sex if it's that important to you. Until I read what you think my lack of personal information meant, I had never thought about it being such an issue, and for it to be used for proof of how I'm such a bad person. It's (my seemingly confusing username) just what I use for login name in general because I consider it easier to use than my kind of obscure first and last name which contains letters not used in the english alphabet. I consider myself a normal human being happy to have a great hobby as flight simming, and love flying in real life as well. Nice to meet you...

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While Carmack remains keen on Xbox 360, he thinks the Vista initiative is bogus, accusing Microsoft of using the new OS's "artificial" tie with DirectX 10 to lure consumers (and developers). "They're really grasping at straws for reasons to upgrade the operating system. I suspect I could run XP for a great many more years without having a problem with it," concluded Carmack. Good news for those content with XP.

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Wow, and you keep going (Your edits keeps getting bigger)... Well, I am starting to get speechless now... But with that said, I stand fully behind those two quotes you dug up out of context as "evidence" of my seemingly horrible character. You seem to have a very low threshold for what is a personal attack or not (As long as it goes your way in YOUR dictated way obviously...).I'm sorry to see that you think my opinions are threatening your internet forum comfort zone in such a way that I should be silenced altogether. Anyway, I have to say that even with tens of thousands of posts in various forums on the internet, I've actually never before come close to experience such a personal vendetta out of the blue as you are displaying here where you actually spend your time digging into my post history looking for negativity because of a misunderstanding where you chose to put words into my mouth in the first place.I'm rather shocked at the level you're going at this, it almost borderlines creepy at this stage. But whatever makes you feel good about yourself. I guess because you are rather infamous around here that whatever I'm trying to say or trying to clear misunderstandings I'll lose either way.

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Carmack is a legend in the gaming community and his opinion in that arena carrys weight. No he is not a god and his opinion is not the last word, however, not only is Vista very interesting, in the fact that the argument pro and con is inexorably reflective of the FSX vs FS9 debate.Apropos, I have had vista since Pre-Beta 1. I've seen Vista grow into what the rest of you will have availale for purchase laster this month and I've been running Vista (Release) since it was available to the MDSN / Technet crowd in Oct / Nov.With that said, Vista is extremely divisive. Personally, I LIKE Vista because it is cool looking and it is new. As far as the other small features and conveniences built in, I hardly know they're there. As a matter of fact, I had a Vista "skin" for Windows XP (by way of Stardock's Windowsblinds) a year before Vista was available to MDSN and to be totally honest...there is very little difference in functionality between my skin and my real version of Vista.The bulk of enhancements in Vista vis-a-v XP is under the hood. Ergo; security, maximum memory capacity, disk access, search, stability, DX10, et al. From an XP end user perspective, 90% will only see a nicer GUI and not much else. The rest will be there but 90% of home users will not know about it OR care about it!This point is driven home by the fact that Micrsoft threatened suit against WindowsBlinds and any site that hosted a Vista skin if they weren't removed because Vista's GUI is what the vast majority of users will notice to be the difference between XP and Vista. The typical end user who sees a copy in best buy will care less that there is enhanced search or security in Vista. Furthermore, if Microsoft let the Vista skin propagate it would indeed cause loss of Vista sales when an XP user can have 80% of the same experience as a Vista user!Indeed, Microsoft also and to backtrack on their plans to release a DX10 version for XP. Of course it is more than possible for DX10 to run on XP, no question about that. But if Microsoft did then MORE lost sales for Vista because as Carmack stated above, he is more than happy with XP as it is and I would surmise so are millions of avid gamers around the world.It is absolutely no secret that game performance in XP trounces game performance in Vista. This is because the entry level requirements just to get Vista up and running is very steep and a great majority of end users right now will find that they cannot run Vista on their current systems in Vista Aero mode, and worse, DX9 game performance is at least 20% worse than XP! (The difference between Vista Basic and Vista Aero is the glass effects, plus other nice 3D desktop effects, Vista Basic is pretty much XP with a new start bar).I have a volume license to Vista, and have activated it on my computer (see specs below), my mother's computer (HP P4 3.0 w/1GB of RAM and ATI X800), my son's computer (P4 2.8 w 1/GB and ATI X850XT) and my girlfriend's computer (P4 1.8 with 512 and ATI mobile GPU). In ALL cases except MY computer, Vista defaults to Vista Basic mode! This is because the OS realizes that none of the other installs will do well in Windows Aero mode and still give good performance in other apps, including games. Now, Vista DID load even on my girlfriends's 4 year old PC however, performance is slower even when running ActiveX controlled websites like Quicken in IE7. In all cases, except mine, all three PC's on which I loaded Windows will need more memory, a new Video card and a new processor...as reflected in the Vista performace scores of each computer which is a 1 out of 5, where my computer scores a 4 out of 5.Next the big question, FSX and FS9 performance is Vista. Again, I stress that I have the SAME version that will be released to you later this month...not a beta or an RC:FS9 - Frame rates are 25% lower than in XP but more than usable. FSX - Well you have seen my complaints here, FSX stutters and has 10 second pauses! FSX in Vista right now is horific!It should be clear by now the parallels between Vista and FSX. FS9 could be paralleled to Windows XP. FS9 while not as pretty and polished and new as FSX, it runs pretty well on your current system and still has legs for quite a few more years. FSX is wizbang, has new features and is brand spanking new, however, the entry level requirements are steep, the argument for moving to FSX is not compelling enough for a great many of its users to make the switch and many experts are left scratching their heads. Still, those arguing for FS9 see no reason to switch and those arguing for FSX see every reason in the world to switch. Interchange Vista and XP anywhere in the above paragraph and the parallels between the two is compelling.At the end of the day, we need to understand what Vista actually is. Vista was meant to be much more than it will be when it hits store shelves this month. Unfortunately, many features and enhancements didn't make it into Vista. Vista has become the "WindowsME" on the road to Windows Vienna (aka Blackcomb) which will be the "revolultion" in the same way Windows XP was a revolution vs. Windows 95 while WindowsME was just an interim release. Unfortunately Vienna is at least 5 - 7 years away.Vista is NOT the quantum jump we saw from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95, nor the jump we saw from Windows 95 to Windows XP. The new GUI and DX10 will be the only reason many will switch to Vista...but many will NOT move to Vista and that will be a problem.Game developers are starting to code for DX10. To run a DX10 game you need Vista. Many will refuse to move to Vista...therefore lost sales will be a reality and many developers will end up releasing DX9 / DX10 games so that they can address the XP as well as the Vista market. Is that scary or what? Plug FSX and FS9 above and again, we see an intersting parallel! Developers in the FS world are stuck releasing both FS9 and FSX titles because so many have refused to move to FSX and to stave off lost sales, BOTH groups of users are now being addressed. With the exception of Cloud9, not too many other developers are releasing FSX only titles! In any respect, Vista is what it is - just like FSX is what it is. I am betting that in a few years the paradigm will shift over to Vista as technology catches up to provide peak performance and the gap is filled. Again, the parallel: technology will catch up to FSX. The only break from the parallel is that the Aces team will have to drag FSX kicking and screaming to take advantage of multi-core and DX10 to make that happen whereas Vista has that capability and scalabiity built in.The road ahead will be turbulent and the bitter feud between Vista / XP and FS9 / FSX is unavoidable. For me, I am keeping Vista because I like it and it performs well on my system. FSX is being fixed so I would assume that a year from now FS9 will be a thing of the past. Again, plug FS9, FSX, Vista and XP anywhere in that sentence!

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Mike,That was well written,on topic,detailed,informative and did not flame anybody.What in the world were you thinking?:-lol

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I agree, Thanks Mike. It's nice to see something posted regarding Vista that's both meaningful and helpful. Doug

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Gee I wonder if Vista and Dx10 are being developed to screw OpenGL.Didn't they kill Glide?!

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>>But please guys stop the personal attacks. I've been the victim of personal attacks countless times, here on avsim but nowhere else, and never are those threads pulled and it really does bring down the atmosphere here at Avsim.<

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I don't know if I'd use the word "screw" rather Microsoft seeks to maintain its competitive advantage over OpenGL. OpenGL is a competing technology to DX10 and it's the smart business move from a revenue standpoint. If OpenGL falls to the wayside in the process, so be it, but that is hardpressed to happen since OpenGL is intrinsic to the extremely popular MacOS.To take it one step further, one of the biggest threats to the Windows franchise is Apple's OS (no, not Linux). OS X is extremely popular and has helped the Mac steal millions of users from Microsoft. Apple is so confident in their MAC line that they have their "I am a Mac and I am a PC" commercials blasting Microsoft/Intel at every turn (and I find them absolutely hilarious because they are based, for the most part, in fact - but I'm not switching since there is no MSFS for Mac!). In any respct, my brother is a big Mac user because he is a graphics artist and his first comment on seeing Vista is how much it reminds him of Apples's OSX. This too his a backbone comment to many who are familiar with both OS's.Vista and DX10 is aimed at OpenGL as well as the MAC OS. Nothing unfair there but just Microsoft trying to get some market share back from Apple.*edited for content*

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