Just Flight BAC One Eleven Pitch Problem

[Tim_Capps 474]

Okay, not expecting much, but it is a fun little historical jet and mostly nice enough except crazy pitch problems. On autopilot it's okay, but switch off and neither elevator nor trim input are predictable--now zooming up toward a stall, now doing a lawn dart short of the runway. Almost as bad on takeoff. Any ideas? Payware should be flyable at least, and while I've seen this issue crop in from time to time in my research, nothing ever seemed to get resolved. Maybe it was and something in 5.1 didn't get adjusted. I dunno. Would like to fly it, but have other stuff if no one has a fix.

[wyman_hd 232]

Did you check for a "Made in Britain" sticker? That might be the problem.

On a serious note, I'm assuming this only happens with the One Eleven? Usually these weird control inputs are relegated to issues with the hardware, like ghost inputs. I've never flown the One Eleven so I can't really say if it's something like an auto-trim system messing something up. 

[coastaldriver 919]

Tim - I can concur here. Very dificult to control in pitch and weird behaviour at altitude (pitching up increasingly as speed increases so then it will stall). Diagnostically there is a mismatch between the T Tail and the wing and its coordinates. Curiosly it is the same problem that caused the 'deep stall syndrome' in the real aeroplane so I guess the modellers did not understand this basic aerodynamic problem.   The best BAC111 was Dave Maltby's but it is a no go in P3D (No internal VC model). The JF BAC 111 was ok in some aspects but like some of these by JF great textures etc but the let down was dynamics and lighting. The other issue I had was ground handling, rolled about like a drunken pig again indicative that the contact points and dynamic coordinates were wrong. I really do not know how these get released in this condition. 

It is probably fixable but at the moment I cannot be bothered spending days redoing the dynamics etc. The aeroplane is a classic and was really the first rear engine jet transport around not super fast but not bad, the engines were realy fuel guzzlers and very very noisy. Gave reliable dependable service for a lot of operators for a long time. 

I raised these issues with JF but never got a response or a fix. I also have a major texture bleed through in the VC which is a P3D issue for these converted models and for these reasons, it is in my hangar and there it will stay! So I can confirm what you say but have not fix!

Edited June 23, 2021 by coastaldriver

[Tim_Capps 474]

Thanks CD. I figured as much and you were on the (very) short list of people I thought might comment. I did get to practice a 90 degree roll to recover from uncommanded pitch up! Oh well, it’s an interesting bit of aviation history. (Who knew American Airlines flew One Elevens? “ASTROJET” lol) I’ll try out the different models to see if there’s one that works. Also I was fairly heavy—maybe it’s overly sensitive to that. (Above 20,000 feet it really struggled to climb and I never made it to 280.) I could swear I got through the tutorial without the problem to this degree. But I’m not spending too much time on it. It was a lark due to my fascination with Court Line.

[aspen31 4]

I had the same problem to the extent that the airplane was not flyable. In my case an external shot revealed that the elevator suddenly moved to the full down position which control inputs had little effect. My Saitek X-52 works perfectly with all other aircraft. I did receive an answer from Just Flight acknowledging the issue without offering any corrective suggestions. After more than a year nothing has changed so I don't fly the 1-11 which until then was one of my favorites in it's many iterations.

Warren

 

[coastaldriver 919]

After this and having an evening on my hands (vaccine shot reaction laid me low) I did a fresh reinstallation from scratch into 5.2 Stll have the green cockpit syndrome with the nav lights on, still have the flaky AP controls (pitch wheel) on the ground it seemed more stable but on tkof wanted to diverge to the starboard side and required constant rudder corrections to keep straight (nil wind) not as unstable in pitch but still untidy - almost impossible to make small pitch corrections and the trim overcorrects every time. Could not get the 300 series above F230 rate of climb had fallen to less than 500 fpm. Had a look at the air file and tweaked a whole bunch of settings (starting with the dimensions which are completely out of whack!) - now it would not get off the ground at all no elevator control - then I surrendered. 

Tim, et al, I have seen this with other models before too, the developers tweak and tweak and tweak the configuration and air file to make them fly, to the point where the basic data is a complete mismatch with the reall aeroplane (for example Tail area is given as @35 sq ft but the real one was 135 sqft. etc etc.) The engine data is basically correct but it looks like they never overcame air flow starvation issue with the air tables - hint jet engines go faster and like cold air - ram effect it increases their thermal efficiency! so that means tweaking the inlet area to start with just to simulated the real thrust output. The elevator and trim response issue. As a last resort I put in Maltby's air file again with real dimensions etc would not leave the ground. Back in the hangar with it! I might get around to having another go at it but quite frankly my go to T Tail Twin Jet  is the Flight 1 DC9 and Super 80's which fly beautifully in P3DV5.2 and all the study levels systems work - even in the sim the dependable Douglas Diesel wins out!. 

[Tim_Capps 474]

There are better for sure, not to mention the Maddog!

[djbully 210]

Well this one is on my wishlist at Just Flight. Looks like it will be staying there. 🙄

Thanks for the heads up. 😎

Edited June 23, 2021 by djbully

[Tim_Capps 474]

Okay, not so fast. (Pun intended.) I just did a KBUR to KMRY flight in the American Airlines ASTROJET 400 and I'll be darned if it wasn't pretty good. It still struggled to reach 28,000 feet, but was very docile on approach and landing. No problems taxiing, either. The difference? I kicked everyone off and took 50% fuel. That's right. I flew empty. It was actually enjoyable. It seems to load by default at 100% fuel/payload, and even when I cut that back some in the disastrous flight (same departure-destination) it was un-flyable. So, I'm thinking it is very sensitive to weight and CG. Somebody smarter than I am can take it from there, but I was happy to make this discovery.

[Tim_Capps 474]

21 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

is the Flight 1 DC9 and Super 80's which fly beautifully in P3DV5.2

I don’t doubt you, but inquiries about using the Coolsky DC-9 through official channels have always resulted in a “not supported” response. So, while that was a favorite of mine in FSX I’ve never picked it up. So, it works fine after all, no tweaking or loss of function?

[coastaldriver 919]

Yep I have no idea what went on with CoolSky-McPhat Studios but it seems to have all ended up a bust. Flight 1 have picked up the CoolSky DC9-30 and packaged it with the Super 80 and Super 80 Pro so you get all three. The package is for P3DV5 and works without any issues at all for me. You get the classic 9-30 and the later stretched versions moving from the partial digital cockpits to the full digital. They do say however for some legal reasons to do with the CoolSky-McPhat thing that they are unable to change these or add to them now. That means no freighter anymore or the various cockpit textures that McPhat used to do! Flight 1 do keep the livery library going as well and there is a dedicated forum for the model as well. The forum is not that active but you do get responses so it seems there is still a lot of happy and decicated DC-9 fliers out there! The only aggravation is Coolsky etc used to use one of those livery apps (Like Capt Sim do) to install paints and that is no longer around so if you find a paint your after on the web chances are it will need this app to do it which of course you don't have. I ended up doing a few repaints for myself they came up ok and a lot of others not interested in anyway. 

I will be honest and say Flight 1's web purchasing and licensing system used to drive me nuts ages ago and I was reluctant to deal with them for that reason alone, I did not want the aggravation of going around in circles but they seem to have got their act together now so it is good. 

Who ever it was for Flight 1 did a really good job on the Coolsky DC9 so the old FSX study level DC-9 is properly P3DV5 compliant and I have had no problems running it at all. A lot of folk were put off by its complcation but all the tools are there and work to understand it and use it. Besides it flies really well. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by coastaldriver

[Tim_Capps 474]

1 hour ago, coastaldriver said:

Flight 1 have picked up the CoolSky DC9-30 and packaged it with the Super 80 and Super 80 Pro so you get all three. The package is for P3DV5 and works without any issues at all for me. You get the classic 9-30 and the later stretched versions moving from the partial digital cockpits to the full digital.

Okay, I got the Super Duper MegaPack Ultimate Professional DC-9 etc. or whatever it is called from Flight 1. Surprisingly enough, I entered my old password (been ages since I've patronized them for the same reasons you mentioned) got a coupon as a prior purchaser for FSX, and installed without drama for 29 bucks! The DC-9 does indeed work as I recalled, at least based on my usual KBUR-KMRY test route. Handled nicely, autopilot worked as expected, looked good. I haven't tried out the later models, but if just the old steam gauge DC-9 works it will be well worth the price since this was a favorite. (My testimonial is still up on the purchase page.) This has been a pretty good day. I got the BAC One Eleven to perform acceptably and got reunited with the old Coolsky DC-9 family. Not to take anything away from the Leonardo Maddog, but the older products are just more my style. I like to fly a lot of different airplanes and have found the Maddog and FSLabs Airbus to require more devotion than I'm willing to give in order to get the most out of them. Guess I'm just naturally polyairplanous 🙂 If I want to settle down and get married, I'll probably look hard at the A2A COTS Connie.

[coastaldriver 919]

Tim good to hear that. Yeah I am a bit like that I prefer the older models to have fun and sim with. I find the high end EFIS stuff is well how do I say just like work used to be - boringly predictable, safe and easy to operate really but not much fun! I grew up with steam gauges so I was always comfortable with them. 

I have been so busy reinstalling stuff and sorting out 5.2 not much else has happened, it is time to just go and have some fun for awhile. 

 

[wyman_hd 232]

6 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

Yep I have no idea what went on with CoolSky-McPhat Studios but it seems to have all ended up a bust.

It was more that McPhat went bust, and that CoolSky had no visual designer to work with. Espen, the guy at CoolSky, is mainly a programmer and doesn't delve into the visuals. McPhat studios developed the model and textures, but yeah, they are gone. CoolSky originally worked on the Super80 and Super80Pro in around 2004 ~ 2005 ish and at that time the person in charge of the 3d modelling and texturing wasn't McPhat (they didn't exist at that time I don't think). 

Regarding legalities, McPhat owns copyright to the models so yeah, Espen basically has to find new people to redo the modelling and texturing, as they can't support/edit the current model as McPhat owns it. The cargo version is still available to buy, and it works in v4 (you have to install the cargo first, then install the P3Dv4 v2.0.2 and v2.0.4 updates for it to work). The liveries and UHDT cockpit textures are no longer available for sale unfortunately, as they were originally distributed via McPhat's store and FeelThere's store, but McPhat cease to exist and FeelThere recently overhauled their store, so a lot of old products are not available. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by arwasairl

[Tim_Capps 474]

3 hours ago, arwasairl said:

Regarding legalities, McPhat owns copyright to the models so yeah, Espen basically has to find new people to redo the modelling and texturing, as they can't support/edit the current model as McPhat owns it.

The lawyer in me goes "wha...?" But there's a reason I stuck to criminal law. Contracts and intellectual property are confusing. Blunt instruments aren't. Anyway, right in the middle of a flight in the old Super 80 Pro sporting Avianca livery heading to Bogota Columbia from Sao Paolo, Brazil. (Bad headwind, if you're down that way, and I just realized I'll be crossing the equator and should probably celebrate.)The VC visual quality ranges from okay to blech, although I sort of admire the tromp l'oeil 2D overhead, although it's very fuzzy. At one time I had quite a few McPhat paint jobs, obtained as a reviewer here and paid for. They were something of a phenom. But I used to have a lot of things I don't anymore. One of them isn't the Coolsky T tail collection, which is very fun to fly and looks pretty good from the outside. I had forgotten that crazy ONS model I might get around to trying again. Bet no one is flying THAT on a regular basis! The BAC One Eleven wasn't a wasted purchase for me, although I can't find a Court Line livery. Shame, since they were the original colorful fun holiday airline and operated several along with their pair of L1011s. JustFlight said they couldn't reproduce the problem and suggested my controls were messed up or my plane was overweight.