4 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Do they employ also starving 7 year-old kiddos to transport huge boxes in their warehouse 😄 ? In France and many other countries there are legal minimum wages that are well above the poverty line and, If I am not mistaken, Amazon in the US pays a 15 USD/hour minimum wage, a traditional Democrat demand. The Federal minimum wage is half of that.

 

I think there is plenty of evidence of Amazon workers barely being able to live on their salaries and awful working conditions. So that's not really in dispute.

6 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Amazon taxes : this is a hot issue in France. Again the bottom line is that taxing more Amazon means taxing more me as the tax will trickle down to the price. 

 

Trickle down economics has been shown to be a myth.

 

27 minutes ago, psolk said:

As for taxes, again hate the game that gave them the opportunity to play the system not the person taking advantage of the loopholes that are in place for them...  

 

Hate is a strong word, but it is possible to hate the system and the companies making billions in profits who take advantage of the system. A company should provide a safe, comfortable working environment and adequate pay for the work done. To have the atitude "you are lucky to have a job so stop complaining" while the company continues to pay a pittance and ignore workers in their warehouse having to pea in bottles (as has been reported) all while making billions is a bit Victorian isn't it?

Are we being selfish by making use of fast cheap delivery of products, while knowing this goes on?

10 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

  So that's not really in dispute.

 

 

 

A nice way to close a debate 😅 !  Move on, nothing  to see here ! 

Lets see : In France, Amazon employees as any worker are paid a minimum of  10.25 euros an hour which means 1.554,58 euros a month gross (1223 net of mandatory insurances) for a workweek of 35 hours.  The real median wage of Amazon is 16.67 euros an hour.

 

Edited July 21, 20214 yr by Dominique_K

12 minutes ago, psolk said:

I don't judge the morality of a society I contribute to because it would make me a hypocrite.

 

The alternative is to judge the morality of "an aspect" of society and recognises ones own hypocrisy. Better than ignoring the immorality in the system because when we ignore immorality in the system, others less well off than us continue to suffer.

3 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

Hate is a strong word, but it is possible to hate the system and the companies making billions in profits who take advantage of the system. A company should provide a safe, comfortable working environment and adequate pay for the work done. To have the atitude "you are lucky to have a job so stop complaining" while the company continues to pay a pittance and ignore workers in their warehouse having to pea in bottles (as has been reported) all while making billions is a bit Victorian isn't it?

Are we being selfish by making use of fast cheap delivery of products, while knowing this goes on?

Again, why pick on Amazon?  Peeing in bottles was reported and de-bunked.  No offense, I was a road warrior for years and have peed in many a bottle on the road LOL!!!  I never called the news about it... 

Ever bought from Nike, Apple, Gap, Old Navy, any furniture store, any electronics, any clothing, any bedding any food?  Heck, the computer you are typing on was probably built by someone earning a pittance overseas.

Are we selfish as a society, yes, hands down emphatically yes but singling out a few individuals or companies for a global pandemic is pure hypocritical garbage unless you are living off the grid sustaining yourself.  Otherwise every visit to the food store where farm labor is being exploited globally is a selfish act as well.  

JP Morgan's CEO is worth billions, is he "better" or less "selfish" because his employees have a 250K base to start but have to work 100+ hour weeks, give up their families and their lives for the first few years or should Amazon's workers gone for a job at JP Morgan instead?  This isn't a Bezos/Branson/Musk problem this is a societal problem we have not addressed since coal workers in the mines... 

Singling these few individuals out is nothing more than hypocritical jealousy in my opinion.  I don't begrudge them anything as long as they follow the laws intended to guide them.  If the laws allow them to behave like this go after the lawmakers and politicians but oh wait, they are all too busy with their own agendas and getting rich to actually help society... 

 

3 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

A nice way to close a debate 😅 !  Move on, nothing  to see here ! 

Lets see : In France, Amazon employees as any worker are paid a minimum of  10.25 euros an hour which means 1.554,58 euros a month gross (1223 net of mandatory insurances) for a workweek of 35 hours.  The real median wage of Amazon is 16.67 euros an hour.

 

 

Amazon is a worldwide company, not just France. Fantastic if you think Amazon workers aren't exploited in France but sadly that's not the case in terms of Amazon worldwide. Do you think we should look at the bigger picture?

What about working conditions in Amazon warehouses in France?

Looks like French workers don't stand for any nonsense and fight back hard. Pity they had to fight in the first place though.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/29/opinion/amazon-france-coronavirus.html

Seems Amazon workers were facing all manner of working condition issues.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/19/tech/amazon-france-reopen/index.html

"For almost a decade, workers at the heart of Amazon’s operations in Europe have fought for better working conditions, and failed"

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/amazon-union-europe

As I said, it's not really in dispute.

10 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

Amazon is a worldwide company, not just France. Fantastic if you think Amazon workers aren't exploited in France but sadly that's not the case in terms of Amazon worldwide. Do you think we should look at the bigger picture?

What about working conditions in Amazon warehouses in France?

Looks like French workers don't stand for any nonsense and fight back hard. Pity they had to fight in the first place though.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/29/opinion/amazon-france-coronavirus.html

Seems Amazon workers were facing all manner of working condition issues.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/19/tech/amazon-france-reopen/index.html

"For almost a decade, workers at the heart of Amazon’s operations in Europe have fought for better working conditions, and failed"

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/amazon-union-europe

As I said, it's not really in dispute.

It's actually ironic that in almost every country Amazon has come in and pays above minimum wage opposed to Nike, Apple and others that resorted exclusively to sweat shot labor in China and India yet Steve Jobs is a hero while Apple was producing conditions that would make Amazon look like a Caribbean resort and pro athletes were making millions endorsing products for Nike that were made by children earning pennies.  

 

Edited July 21, 20214 yr by psolk

12 minutes ago, psolk said:

Again, why pick on Amazon? 

 

Err... because this conversation is about Amazon. 😄 But yes, the system that allows this wherever it resides in any part of the world, and the  companies that exploit  it are both culpable.

 

12 minutes ago, psolk said:

Peeing in bottles was reported and de-bunked.  No offense, I was a road warrior for years and have peed in many a bottle on the road LOL!!!  I never called the news about it... 

 

Call it a metaphor then. Peeing in a bottle on a road trip is one thing, but not when its supposed to be in a safe warehouse with proper facilities and you are peeing in said bottle because you are being pushed to work faster and harder to the point you haven't time to get to the toilet. If it is indeed true.

 

12 minutes ago, psolk said:

Ever bought from Nike, Apple, Gap, Old Navy, any furniture store, any electronics, any clothing, any bedding any food?  Heck, the computer you are typing on was probably built by someone earning a pittance overseas.

 

Correct, what's your point? Its bad wherever it occurs and whoever is culpable. And we selfish westerners ignore what's going on and just benefit from the dodgy working practices. Horrible but true. Do you think that the least we can do is recognise it rather than ignoring what goes on and trying to find excuses why we need not condemn the companies responsible? 

I hope you like my new Socratic debating style. 😁

 

 

Edited July 21, 20214 yr by martin-w

8 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

Err... because this conversation is about Amazon. 😄 But yes, the system that allows this wherever it reside in any part of the world, and the  companies that exploit  it are both culpable.

 

 

Call it a metaphor then. Peeing in a bottle on a road trip is one thing, but not when its supposed to be in a safe warehouse with proper facilities and you are peeing in said bottle because you are being pushed to work faster and harder to the point you haven't time to get to the toilet. If it is indeed true.

 

 

Correct, what's your point? Its bad wherever it occurs and whoever is culpable. And we selfish westerners ignore what going on and just benefit from others dodgy working practices. Horrible but true. Do you think that the least we can do is recognise it rather than ignoring what goes on and trying to find excuses why we need not condemn the companies responsible? 

I hope you like my new Socratic debating style. 😁

 

 

Actually this was a post about a Billionaire re-entry fee, you have single handedly morphed it into an Amazon discussion while systematically ignoring everyone other than Bezos and Amazon...  That's been my point throughout this discussion.  Your issue seems to be a personal issue with Amazon/Bezos.  I take it you don't use Prime LOL...

  In the late 90's pre Y2K I worked at IBM.  We had flipping sleeping bags in our cubicles!!!   We slept on the floor in sleeping bags in between change windows getting ready for Y2K.  Yes, I peed at my desk because I didn't want to take the 5 minutes to go back and forth to the bathroom.  Never made the news and our CEO was never singled out. 

My entire point is WHY are you only talking about Amazon and Bezos?  This isn't an Amazon/Bezos problem and it wasn't even an Amazon/Bezos conversation until you singled in on them.  From Nike, Gap, Old Navy, farm labor, Apple, Haliburton, you name it they are culpable.

Yet despite all of this at least they did something for their money, at the root of the issue in my opinion is the politicians.  How do you justify becoming a millionaire from being an elected official?  That bothers me exponentially more than a successful CEO.

Edited July 21, 20214 yr by psolk

14 minutes ago, psolk said:

Are we selfish as a society, yes, hands down emphatically yes but singling out a few individuals or companies for a global pandemic is pure hypocritical garbage unless you are living off the grid sustaining yourself.  Otherwise every visit to the food store where farm labor is being exploited globally is a selfish act as well.  

 

Nobody is doing that. The link regarding conditions during the pandemic was just an example of French workers fighting back, laudably so. There were other links provided that weren't anything to do with the pandemic that demonstrated bad working conditions in France too. 

 

Quote

Singling these few individuals out is nothing more than hypocritical jealousy in my opinion.  I don't begrudge them anything as long as they follow the laws intended to guide them.  If the laws allow them to behave like this go after the lawmakers and politicians but oh wait, they are all too busy with their own agendas and getting rich to actually help society...

 

Nobody is singling out a few individuals, as you rightly say, its many companies that behave this way. And again, just because they are acting despicably because the law allows then to behave despicably, doesn't mean its right that they should behave despicably and it doesn't mean we should make excuses for the companies that do that, which is something Ive witnessed in this thread. 

We should recognise that the laws that allow this are wrong.

We should condemn the companies that exploit those laws to exploit workers.

We should accept we are all hypocrites for buying the products and services.

We should have more concern for those in society who aren't as well off as we are and suffering. 

We should accept that there are serious issues in society and work toward correcting those issues. 

5 minutes ago, psolk said:

  Your issue seems to be a personal issue with Amazon/Bezos.  I take it you don't use Prime LOL...

 

An incorrect assumption. I am the guy on the forum who, with the speed of a bullet, posts Blue Origin and Space X space news and is enthusiast about said space endeavours and the companies that partake. I applaud Jeff and his magnificent space machine and the millions he has donated to charities.

 

Quote

Actually this was a post about a Billionaire re-entry fee, you have single handedly morphed it into an Amazon discussion while systematically ignoring everyone other than Bezos and Amazon...  That's been my point throughout this discussion.

 

  😦I beg your pardon you cheeky boy. It was Dominique that suggested Bezos had contributed enough by employing so many Amazon workers. I commented that you would have to balance the fact that my mate Jeff has donated to charity, anything we might gain from space endeavours, against not paying much tax etc. 

And no, again, you cheeky boy, I have made it clear that it applies to all such companies.

word not allowed, I was supposed to be in Socratic debating mode. 😠

5 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

Nobody is doing that. The link regarding conditions during the pandemic was just an example of French workers fighting back, laudably so. There were other links provided that weren't anything to do with the pandemic that demonstrated bad working conditions in France too. 

 

 

Nobody is singling out a few individuals, as you rightly say, its many companies that behave this way. And again, just because they are acting despicably because the law allows then to behave despicably, doesn't mean its right that they should behave despicably and it doesn't mean we should make excuses for the companies that do that, which is something Ive witnessed in this thread. 

 

You made this all about Amazon, you absolutely singled out.  Even your articles and links are only about Amazon.  You are having an Amazon conversation and have singled out Bezos whether you recognize it or not.  This wasn't an "Amazon" thread.  

Yep, we should all do everything you wrote, sadly as a society we don't and that isn't a "big company" issue that is an "individual" issue.  I wonder how many of these Amazon warehouse workers happily buy Nike, Apple, and support all the companies out there doing the same thing they are lobbying against their own company to do which is exploiting them?  You see when the Amazon worker making $15 hour runs out to buy their new Nike's they are just adding to a broken model and then they complain when it happens to them. 

If you are a hypocrite then you have no place to complain but sadly people only worry about what impacts THEM and are rarely willing to look in the mirror and address the first thing they can fix which is themselves.  

Quote

My entire point is WHY are you only talking about Amazon and Bezos?  This isn't an Amazon/Bezos problem and it wasn't even an Amazon/Bezos conversation until you singled in on them. 

 

😡 It was a reply to Dominique about Bezos employing Amazon workers, that's why.  Steam is literally coming out of my ears. And I don't think its the heat in the UK at present. You are no longer on my Christmas present list.

2 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

😡 It was a reply to Dominique about Bezos employing Amazon workers, that's why.  Steam is literally coming out of my ears. And I don't think its the heat in the UK at present. You are no longer on my Christmas present list.

OK then sincere apologies if you did not initiate the Amazon conversation...  I do not want you any hotter than you already are, most of the Air Conditioning in the UK (if there is any) is a joke as it is 🙂  Apologies if I misspoke 

 

Edited July 21, 20214 yr by psolk

 

Quote

You made this all about Amazon, you absolutely singled out.  Even your articles and links are only about Amazon. 

 

Grrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's it, no charismas presents or Birthday presents for you. I may send my Ninja round.

Of course it was about Amazon. I was replying to Dominque who said Bezos had already paid enough by employing a multitude or workers. 

Dominique said... "Bezos has given a job to 1 298 000 people, is it not enough as a reentry fee ?"

 

I said... "That would be a difficult calculation. You would have to account for underpaying Amazon staff, Amazon not paying enough tax and offset that with the amount he has given charities and any benefits that will be manifest by his endeavours in space. Tricky calculation."

That's how the entire conversation started about Amazon and Bezos. 

At this point I have downed many tranquilisers but my personnel special forces and Ninja and contacts from the multitude of alien civilisations I'm in contact with are ready to attack. 🚀