Whatever happened to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism?

[Guest Thad]

>Thad,"I'm sure that's very true, but if your idea of support isengaging in slagging matches and trading clever barbs withthose you disagree with, you are part of the problem."Thats not my idea of support but thanks for asking. Just trying to provide some balance where balance is needed. I'm not saying FSX is perfect, God, knows I have my own issues with it but the type of stuff mentioned in that original post just goes to show its getting out of hand around here. "Again, nothing wrong with that; I really don't think you'veread my post in it's entirety."Actually I did read you entire post. I was only addressing the first line which seemed to be one of those, "only MS fan boys feel the need to post positive comments about MS and FSX". My appologies if that was not your intent."It's my belief that this silent majority don't have sillyallegiances to one product or the other,..." I didn't say anything about "silly allegiances". I still use FS9 w/ PMDG planes quite often when I'm not using FSX. "...have valid concernsas to where things are actually going, and are patientlywaiting to see what the future brings."Agreed. Perf boost, DX10, ATC, and addons just to name a few of my concerns."When you actually decide to participate in achieving thatgoal, let me know, and I'll stand right there with you. As of yet, I've not seen you or anyone else do much but perpetuatethe fight."I'm sorry you see it that way.[Edited for grammer]

[Mike T 210]

I agree with you.But in the same token I think many of us are tired of the folks who think that by putting a flower in their hair, flashing the peace sign and trolloping barefoot through the tulips that the mystical fairies up at Redmond will somehow make things all better again.They are both opposite sides of the same coin.

[Mike T 210]

I dunno L. Howa bout we merge them both - FSX-Plane: High frame-rates, fluid motion, WITH everything else! :-)

[Guest BlueRidgeDx]

>It is no more acceptable to trash Microsoft based on such trivial>matters as it is to call another poster a 4-year-old for stating>his opinion, but, round-and-round we go...True. And probably just as inappropriate.However, I think that there's a big difference between using a generalization to point out a widespread lack of courtesy within the community, and leveling slanderous accusations of ACES team members lying to the community.Neither is right, but...shrug.Thanks for the civil discussion.Nick

[DadJokeCinema 145]

>OP-ED: I don't know, from what I've been reading, there ARE>NOT a significant number of people satisfied with FSX. No, I>have no numbers or statistical data, but I read these and>other forums. Sure it takes time for hardware to catch up with>any newly released version of FS, but I can't remember when>I've read so many posts from people who have shelved it>altogether, vs working out the bugs and issues. The coincident>release of a new OS I'm sure complicates all of this too, not>to mention a new DirectX platform. >>But are the tweakers all aging baby-boomers who have just>generally tired of spending what little free time they have>rebuilding and reprogramming their rigs to get FSX to squeeze>out 15 FPS in a slow Cessna at an un-occupied bush strip in>northern Canada? Are the younger simmers just more patient and>able to deal with the same issues we have always dealt with in>the past, with each new release of FS? Or is there genuinely>something amiss here with this particular release? We'll see>what the release of SP1 has in store for us in due time it>seems.>>Food For Thought,and Peace....>>>http://www.my-buddy-icon.com/Icons/objects/red_3d_plane.gif>>Alex Christoff>N562Z>Baltimore, MDThe general statement I recall from many gaming forums is that all the happy people are off playing the game instead of posting.

[Guest BlueRidgeDx]

Mike,I harbor no bad feelings about you whatsoever, so don't take any of this personally.I promise you, that I'm the last person who will EVER take a "flower power" approach to confrontation. But let me put this into perspective...I'm an aircraft dispatcher by profession. I fight tooth-and-nail against management and their "tombstone logic" when it comes to dealing with safety-of-flight issues. I rage against the machine when I get pressured to release a flight into conditions that I feel are unsafe. I regularly get chewed out for complying with provisions of the FOM and FARs that allow me to say "no" and stop the flight in its tracks.Just ask the people I work with what it sounds like when I start catching flak when I insist that I'm not sending my airplane into the SIGMET for severe turbulence that's been validated via PIREP by "numerous types"... Its not what one would call a barefooted trollop with a flower in my hair.The reason I'm telling you this, is because when it really counts, you wouldn't be able shut me up if you wanted to. I'll stand on the highest building and pound my chest while declaring my supreme judgement.There is a time and a place for that, and the FS community is not it.I was on the beta team, and there was plenty of constructive criticism. There was also plenty of worthless complaining. Lest I violate the NDA, I will say no more.The point is, the things you mention like minimal support for dual-core, inclusion of "living-world" animals, and designing the engine for future hardware were all design decisions made by the ACES team while the "experts" were still arguing about whether there would even BE an FS10.Neither we on the beta team, nor you the end-user, ever had any say in that.I maintain that the best and most effective method of communication is one where both parties communicate openly, honestly, and respectfully...It makes no difference whether we're talking about improving FSX, or how to paint a fence. There's a right way, and a wrong way to talk to someone.Leaving allegiances behind, surely you must be able to admit that the over-the-top, conspiracy theory, shake your fists, insult the developer method of communication is anything but effective.I don't believe for a minute, that all the venomous negativity found here and elsewhere is what prompted ACES to undertake the SP1 and/or DX10 updates. They knew before release that they were going to have to give better support for dual-core. They also knew before release that DX10 hardware and Vista were delayed and that there would need to be an update for that as well.On the other hand, those who took the time to give constructive feedback in the form of forum posts, bug reports, and other open communication through blogs and forums, are the ones who REALLY helped ACES decide what needed fixed and in what priority.Nick

[N562Z 4]

Brian:And not sharing there frame-rate secrets with us? That's entertaining, but hard to believe :)http://www.my-buddy-icon.com/Icons/objects/red_3d_plane.gifAlex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MD

[Guest rmce]

Well said!

[Guest jordanmoore]

Excellent post Mike.The root of the problem is the product, not the people complaining about it. Regardless of how rude they might be. Attempts to counter complaints about FSX by arguing its relative merits repeatedly do nothing to help those of us that were let down by what was supposed to be the best Flight Simulator from Microsoft yet.Large, well-known flight simulation community websites are the best places for loyal customers to collectively voice their discontent with this product and have a chance of ACES hearing it right now. It is entirely appropriate that people are doing this.I don't see the complainers here as MS hating, or ACES hating. Mostly, I see people being extremely frustrated at the hubris and inconsistent excuses that are affecting a product that is important to them.Jordan Moore

[Guest odog]

2 releases ago we would have all banded together and fixed all the problems w/o all the crying and whining.THAT is the diferenceand all of this sucks, fmpov. No different than any other version, just less motivation to fix it, that is all.wow

[fbass 1]

The following is my opinion.I think we need a bit of a reality check here. First, neither MS nor ACES is making business decisions based on the rants that appear in this and other forums. If you think someone is paying attention to this nonsense you're sadly mistaken. It may make you feel better but these types of threads are not helping your cause.Second - I too was a BETA tester and I can tell you that we didn't spend a microsecond worrying about animals or birds in FSX. Bug reports and suggestions were accomplished without negative emotion. Issues were stated logically and suggestions were made on possible fixes. There was no whinning or crying from any of the testers. Support for dual core or SLI was just not in the cards simply because the development cycle would have been much longer. That was a cost-benefit decision.Third - The most vocal group who constantly complain about FSX are, in my opinion, those who simply do not have hardware that will run the software and meet their personal expectations at the same time. This is not anyone's fault. It makes no sense what-so-ever to develop software that "looks backwards" in its design precepts. FSX will not run on marginal equipment - understand it and move on. Either upgrade your hardware or use some other software.Fourth - I believe we're going to have another round of crying when folks get their hands on the FX10 upgrade and purchase new graphics cards - especially those that think there is going to be a significant increase in FPS. It isn't going to happen. I will go out on a limb and predict that if you get 3 or 4 FPS out of that upgrade you will be lucky. What you will get is better graphics - not higher operating speeds. Of course you don't have to take my word for this - check with the technical folks (not support) at someplace like NVidia. I spent some real quality time talking to those folks and I received a fairly good explanation about the capabilities of graphics cards.Fifth - Some of you give the distinct impression that those of us who are advocating less negative emotion and more reasonable responses concerning FSX that we somehow are on the payroll of MS or ACES. I certainly wish I was being paid. ALL of us who are using FSX know about the issues surrounding the product. We're just trying to foster a more upbeat and technical attitude as opposed to going ballistic over something you have no control over. Let's give the developers a chance. Let's see what they come up with. You just might be surprised.Frank

[soaring_penguin 428]

or maybe they are just turned of by the vast negativism on these very best forums ?I have been trying to offer some positive, well balanced, helpful advise in another thread, and got accused to be a Microsoft a really excited user that would swallow anything that comes from Redmond, and the reasoning was that MS only wanted our money, had enough time (5 years) to get things wrong again, and that everyone who did not think likewise was sick.nough said, things are not perfect, as usual with the FS brand, but at least me, I am enjoying the games for years, FSX included. I also used Flight Unlimited and Fly! in their time.I remember clearly the negativism when FU III came out : too slow, HW would never pick up, ... .The problem is that the same arguments come back over and over again, and people looking for help, have to wade through pages and pages of plain : it does not work and will never work, and M$ stinks. That is not helpful to anybody. At best it discourages the developers (as happened with FU III) and they all move over to other projects.I think we must act as civilized people, not as a bunch of trolls.I believe most people visiting these forums are high skilled, well educated people. Should not be so dificult :-)just my 2 cents. Jan

[soaring_penguin 428]

>The following is my opinion.>>I think we need a bit of a reality check here. First, neither>MS nor ACES is making business decisions based on the rants>that appear in this and other forums.> Luckily, I would say.>>Support for dual>core or SLI was just not in the cards simply because the>development cycle would have been much longer. That was a>cost-benefit decision.>I think most people agree with that. But I think a lot of people would like otherwise :-).>Third - The most vocal group who constantly complain about FSX>are, in my opinion, those who simply do not have hardware that>will run the software and meet their personal expectations at>the same time. This is not anyone's fault. It makes no sense>what-so-ever to develop software that "looks backwards" in its>design precepts. FSX will not run on marginal equipment ->understand it and move on. Either upgrade your hardware or>use some other software.>Watch out, you are going to hit some sensitive nerves here.>>Fourth - I believe we're going to have another round of crying>when folks get their hands on the FX10 upgrade and purchase>new graphics cards - especially those that think there is>going to be a significant increase in FPS. It isn't going to>happen. I will go out on a limb and predict that if you get 3>or 4 FPS out of that upgrade you will be lucky. What you will>get is better graphics - not higher operating speeds. Of>course you don't have to take my word for this - check with>the technical folks (not support) at someplace like NVidia. I>spent some real quality time talking to those folks and I>received a fairly good explanation about the capabilities of>graphics cards.>Totally agree. ACEs themselves said that they are aiming for a performance gain of 20%. 20% of 20 to 24 frames/second is 4

[Guest fundies]

Okay, sseeing that so may of us hav "marginal" equipment as you say, please give us the proper machine specs to run this game as intended. I.E. CPU, GPU, RAM, PSU.

[Guest odog]

if anything, it drives a wedge between what we wanted and what we now have. If you think that biting the hand that currently feeds you is constructive, you need to leave.they know.I am absolutely embarrased by some of you. We now have an open portal that we could only dream of before, and yet you try to ruin it.why?have you even attempted to work through the SDK's?!we have been given the key to the castle, but you want someone to turn it for you. Push the shiny red button and make your dreams come true.If half as much effort went into versing yourself in the SDK's that goes into the daily vitriol, WEEEEEEee would all be much better off.as always, they give us the base, and we make it GREAT!BUT, this time, most users want it perfect out of the gate.ask yourself this, when has it EVER been!!??dont burn a braincell, i'll tell ya... how bout never!?FS9 was a shined up 2k2, that's why every model from 98 on worked.you demanded this,you got it.frank, i want to party with youmike, it's over isnt it?enjoy your payware, cuz no self-respecting author would dive into this arena for the betterment of the community, only for money,because the community is now gone! It started in FS9, and the current state of this forum only enables it.I can think of only a fewe members of this 30 some thousand member forum that give anything back. when there was only 3 thousand members, 75% were giving back.that is what is different, and that is quite sad. If you find a problem... FIX IT. Quit whining that no one is doing it for you. They didnt for the last 20 years and we got along just fine.DO SOMETHING, crying only makes you look like a babybring it