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scott967

FSGenesis Mesh

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I have a question about the fsgenesis mesh and it making all of the airports seem to be on little plateaus. Why is this happening and how can it be fixed? It looks very cheesy and makes for some serious problems when taxiing on some airports and landings. I love the way the mesh makes the terrain look real but it is seriously affecting the use of the airports. I tried getting into the support forums there but it wont accept my account and password and it says it emailed me my password but it never does. The same user name and password that works for the main website apparently does not work for the support forums...Any help or advice on fixing this serious problem with this product would be appreciated as it's kinda useless at this point. :(________________________________________________________________________________________________Intel D975XBX2 'Bad Axe 2' | Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.20Ghz | 2 GB Super Talent DDR2 800 | Big Typhoon VX | eVGA 8800GTS @ 565/900 | Seagate 2x320GB SATA RAID-0 | OCZ GameXStream 700W | Creative X-Fi | Silverstone TJ-09BW | Matrox Triplehead Setup

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>I have a question about the fsgenesis mesh and it making all>of the airports seem to be on little plateaus. Why is this>happening and how can it be fixed? It looks very cheesy and>makes for some serious problems when taxiing on some airports>and landings. I love the way the mesh makes the terrain look>real but it is seriously affecting the use of the airports. I>tried getting into the support forums there but it wont accept>my account and password and it says it emailed me my password>but it never does. The same user name and password that works>for the main website apparently does not work for the support>forums...>>Any help or advice on fixing this serious problem with this>product would be appreciated as it's kinda useless at this>point. :(>>________________________________________________________________________________________________>>Intel D975XBX2 'Bad Axe 2' | Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.20Ghz>| 2 GB Super Talent DDR2 800 | >Big Typhoon VX | eVGA 8800GTS @ 565/900 | Seagate 2x320GB SATA>RAID-0 | >OCZ GameXStream 700W | Creative X-Fi | Silverstone TJ-09BW |>Matrox Triplehead SetupIt's my understanding that it is due to the way FSX maps Airports.Meaning the airports are always on a flat mesh.FSG can't do anything about it.I am sure Justin at FSG can explain it much better. lol

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Take a look at this FAA chart of KLAS - Las Vegas - http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0703/00662AD.PDFNote the elevations of the runway ends and the airport reference point.25R - 20337L - 2179 - 146 feet difference25L - 20487R - 2157 - 109 feet difference1L - 218119R - 2089 - 92 feet difference1R - 217619L - 2078 - 98 feet differenceThe "official" airport elevation is 2181 feet, and the lowest recorded point is 2033 ft - a difference of 148 feet in elevation.The FSX official elevation is 644.8M - which works out to very close to 2181 feet.If you look at a map of Las Vegas, you will see that Hwy 593, East Tropicana Ave s just north of the ends of Rwys 19L/ 19R.In the default FSX, this road will have an elevation of approx 2160 feet - it will take the default mesh about a half mile to blend the 100 foot difference in elevation between the airport and the surrounding area.If you add a detailed mesh like FS Genesis - or any detailed mesh anywhere in the world - the road just 100 meters from the end of the runway will be at the real world elevation of about 2070 feet.The transition in elevation of about 100 feet occurs in 100 meters, not one KM.FSX airports are not truely flat - as were the airports in FS2004 and previous versions of FS. The KLAS airport has about six feet (2M) of elevation variation due to the 'round earth' which is causing addon scenery developers so much trouble.However, 6 feet (2M) is much less variation than the real world.It's an old issue - the more detailed the mesh, the more drastic these elevation changes will appear.And I won't even get into places like NTMD where the mesh is accurate, but the airport, and island, is 3,400 M too far south - resulting in an airport at 67M and the mesh elevation at 500M.The solution - the same as any airport - local knowledge. Someone needs to take the time to work on the elevation transitions by creating a higher level mesh. Usually that requires someone with detailed local knowledge and access to detailed topographic maps.

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Thanks Reggie, thats a great explanation. I do not recall this problem being displayed in bold on the fsgenesis site though or else i would not have purchased the mesh. There are literally some airports where i can't taxi from the taxiway to the runway because there is a ditch in between the two which causes me to crash obviously when making the transition. I find this whole thing to be a bit clunky and at this point either need a refund or a solution. I love the mesh, but after playing more with fsx these past few days due to fixing the CTD's (knock on wood) this airport plateau issue is really annoying me. Maybe justin can chime in with some options since i cant login to his site.________________________________________________________________________________________________Intel D975XBX2 'Bad Axe 2' | Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.20Ghz | 2 GB Super Talent DDR2 800 | Big Typhoon VX | eVGA 8800GTS @ 565/900 | Seagate 2x320GB SATA RAID-0 | OCZ GameXStream 700W | Creative X-Fi | Silverstone TJ-09BW | Matrox Triplehead Setup

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The elevations are controlled by the scenery mesh resolution. Moving it left to 152m will eliminate the problem or reduce it considerably. Move the slider to the right and the elevations will be more pronounced. I found this out on the scenery forum several months ago but can't find the original link. Anyway, it works for me and I have Justin's mesh installed.Best regards,Jim

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There are literally some airports where i can't taxi from the taxiway to the runway because there is a ditch in between the two which causes me to crashWhich airports? Are you using any FS2004 AFCAD files in FSX at these airports?FSX gets the base elevation from the airport polygon, and the only way I know of to alter the elevation on an airport with ditches, etc, is by replacing the airport polygon with one with an altered outline so that the terrain elevation grid can be used in some parts of the airport.An addon mesh will not alter the airport polygon elevation.Taxiways and aprons create flatten areas at the airport base elevation, while runways do not. This does cause some transition issues on some airports.Also the Bitumus runway texture is a 'soft' runway in the FS2004 definitions - allowing 'bumps' to come through. Which is the main issue with a popular addon scenery for KSEA.

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>find this whole thing to be a bit clunky and at this point>either need a refund or a solution. I am surprised you are just now finding out about this issue (!).The "airports on plateaus or in trenches" issue has been around for years, and it's not specific to FSX. R. gave a good explanation as any as to why it happens. Justin won't give a better explanation. He is occasionally on here.Good luck trying to get money back, since it's not an issue with mesh itself but rather an issue with inaccurate airport elevations, and the inability of any version of FS up to the present time to have the capability to render sloping runways. I can't speak for FSG, but really that's an FS2000, FS2002, FS2004, FSX issue and not an FSG issue.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

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Doesn't that pretty much defeat the purpose of having the add-on mesh in the first place? Just curious, if I'm missing something.Ian.

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IIRC Justin is off-line for a couple days due to personal matters. I have yet to find an easy way to correct airport plateaus. It can be done by hand, but at least for me is time consuming.scott s..

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>Doesn't that pretty much defeat the purpose of having the>add-on mesh in the first place? Just curious, if I'm missing>something.>>Ian.Ian, i was about to post the same thing. Why raise the mesh rez back up past 10m to solve a problem that wouldnt be there any way had i not installed the mesh. It really doesnt matter whose fault it is. Ultimately it is fsgenesis that created the product and sold it. Like i said, i dont recall seeing any bold notice on their site saying that you will see this problem if you use the mesh or i would not have purchased it had i seen this and seen an example. The whole thing could be explained a lot better on their website so that the customer is informed and can make a choice after seeing an example of what to expect. I also bought the mesh for fs9 and i dont see this problem in fs9 so it must be a strictly fsx problem, either that or its not nearly as pronounced on fs9 due to the rez of the mesh...One of the airports i am referring to is the airport on the west coast of oahu island. I cant even taxi to the fuel area after landing due to the ditch. Las vegas is also a mess with ditches and trenches in between the terminals. I only fly into 5 airports with any regularity so i am sure that there are many other problem child airports as well if 2 out of 5 that i do use consistently display these types of problems.I took a picture from moro rock facing the great western divide in sequoia natl park a few years ago when i was there and loaded up the gps coords for it in fsx with the mesh and compared the sim to the real pic and i tell you EVERY little twist and turn and shape in those hills and mountains was nearly identical to the real world. It really was very cool. Now fix those airports!________________________________________________________________________________________________Intel D975XBX2 'Bad Axe 2' | Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.20Ghz | 2 GB Super Talent DDR2 800 | Big Typhoon VX | eVGA 8800GTS @ 565/900 | Seagate 2x320GB SATA RAID-0 | OCZ GameXStream 700W | Creative X-Fi | Silverstone TJ-09BW | Matrox Triplehead Setup

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I have hit the ditches yet, usually fly in the smaller airports but the plateau issue is a problem. FS9 was just as bad concerning plateaus and unfotunately it seems to be a trade off between detailed terrain elevation and the limitation of airport and even some lake elevations.In FS9 I remember flying north of Denver and seeing a myriad of lakes jutting out 500 to a 1000 feet over the terrain, it had a tendency to kill the immersion factor a bit.As far as fixing the problem, as stated by others, there is a flatten fix but these must be done by hand for each individual airport from what I understand. I myself would be more than willing to fix a certain area if I knew what to do because the terrain at this level of resolution is amazing, but I've found some airports on plateaus or even some in 1000 foot ditches that really detract from the brilliance of the product.Ian.

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Hi Astrodave,Reggie did an excellent job of explaining the source of the problem. There is also a similar explanation under the FAQs at FSG.But, the problem is not with the mesh, but with the flat-airport-limitation of the last several versions of FS.Blaming the terrain mesh for the plateaus is akin to blaming the road for turning when one drives straight into a tree.To alter the terrain mesh to conform perfectly to 23,000-some airports would be a gargantuan task, far beyond the scope of a one-man operation. That said, only a small percentage of airports are affected in a significant way, and a good portion of those can be attributed to inaccurate published data on smaller, off-the-beaten-path dirt and grass strips. A larger percentage are affected in a less-than-significant way and those cases will only be resolved when FS has the ability to display airports as they are in real life--not perfectly flat.Until then, it's a trade-off. Most will agree that to uninstall the high-res terrain because of the plateaus on which some airports sit is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.Hope this helps-------Justinhttp://www.fsgenesis.netHigh Quality Scenery for FS200x

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Ian andAstrodave and others having issues with the FSG Mesh,I provided a solution as I received from scenery experts reading various forums. Ian and Astrodave: You are probably right that lowering the resolution will defeat the purpose of Justin's FSG mesh addon. You don't have to reduce the resolution to it's lowest settings as I suggested above. You can put the slider in the middle at 19 meters and you'll have just a small plateau to deal with. You can also set up a FSX config just for flying into or out of offending airports or scenery areas where the mesh resolution can be lowered just for those flights. There are solutions other than simply removing the FSG mesh (which I recommend for those who still have 'major' issues until this issue is resolved). I believe this issue has been brought to the attention of Justin already and he is working on a fix for the problem. That's what I recall anyway as I visit his forum regularly, read these forums, other flightsim forums, and look for ways to enhance my flight sim experience by reading comments such as yours in this thread. It's a great learning experience! I try to help others experiencing problems such as this by offering some information I have picked up from various forums and my experiences with flight simming since August 1991. The information may help them in some way. I think that's what forums are all about. I just wish some posters wouldn't try to pick apart comments and suggestions made by posters, such as me, in their humble efforts to help out those who have questions/problems regarding this hobby. "Thanks for the suggestion" or "your comments are appreciated but that will not resolve my problem" would be more appropriate. Thanks for your time and I hope this mesh resolution issue can be resolved sometime in the near future.Best regards,Jim

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Thanks for your input Justin. We all know its not your fault and i am not blaming you. I do however wish that you would clearly state this on your website as a bolded issue on the SAME webpage where the product is purchased. I don't usually make it a habit of digging through 50 pages of support forums to look for possible problems when using a product before i buy. I did manage to find a thread about this problem at the bottom of the first page of your forums but no mention of it even in the sticky section. Overall i am still happy with the product, but frustrated at the look and functionality of many of the world's airports.________________________________________________________________________________________________Intel D975XBX2 'Bad Axe 2' | Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.20Ghz | 2 GB Super Talent DDR2 800 | Big Typhoon VX | eVGA 8800GTS @ 565/900 | Seagate 2x320GB SATA RAID-0 | OCZ GameXStream 700W | Creative X-Fi | Silverstone TJ-09BW | Matrox Triplehead Setup

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>Ian and>Astrodave >and others having issues with the FSG Mesh,>>I provided a solution as I received from scenery experts>reading various forums. Ian and Astrodave: You are probably>right that lowering the resolution will defeat the purpose of>Justin's FSG mesh addon. You don't have to reduce the>resolution to it's lowest settings as I suggested above. You>can put the slider in the middle at 19 meters and you'll have>just a small plateau to deal with. You can also set up a FSX>config just for flying into or out of offending airports or>scenery areas where the mesh resolution can be lowered just>for those flights. There are solutions other than simply>removing the FSG mesh (which I recommend for those who still>have 'major' issues until this issue is resolved). I believe>this issue has been brought to the attention of Justin already>and he is working on a fix for the problem. That's what I>recall anyway as I visit his forum regularly, read these>forums, other flightsim forums, and look for ways to enhance>my flight sim experience by reading comments such as yours in>this thread. It's a great learning experience! I try to help>others experiencing problems such as this by offering some>information I have picked up from various forums and my>experiences with flight simming since August 1991. The>information may help them in some way. I think that's what>forums are all about. I just wish some posters wouldn't try>to pick apart comments and suggestions made by posters, such>as me, in their humble efforts to help out those who have>questions/problems regarding this hobby. "Thanks for the>suggestion" or "your comments are appreciated but that will>not resolve my problem" would be more appropriate. Thanks for>your time and I hope this mesh resolution issue can be>resolved sometime in the near future.>>Best regards,>JimSorry Jim. I appreciate your helpful tone and ideas so please don't feel offended. I just thought that it was obvious that if I had to move the mesh sliders up to the point where it was the default mesh of the game out of the box then it kinda defeats the purpose of ever installing the fsg mesh. I hear people recommending ways to run fsx smoothly to the point that it looks worse than running fs9 and still getting less fps and i feel this way as well. It kinda defeats the purpose. I hope you don't take offense like i said and i do appreciate your help.________________________________________________________________________________________________Intel D975XBX2 'Bad Axe 2' | Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 @ 3.20Ghz | 2 GB Super Talent DDR2 800 | Big Typhoon VX | eVGA 8800GTS @ 565/900 | Seagate 2x320GB SATA RAID-0 | OCZ GameXStream 700W | Creative X-Fi | Silverstone TJ-09BW | Matrox Triplehead Setup

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Can't say I love the look of airports with "raised" ends either, but the tradeoff for the higher res mountain mesh is certainly worth it. However, I have not yet noticed "ditch" problems in regards to taxiways. Have flown to many airports throughout the western U.S. including Las Vegas, and have not encountered this problem.L.Adamson

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Looking at my initial response I see how it could be taken the wrong way. I was actually thinking aloud wondering if I had missed somthing literally, it wasn't directed at you personally, more an attempt to discuss so take no offense.Ian.

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>I have yet to find an easy way to correct airport>plateaus. It can be done by hand, but at least for me is time>consuming.Scott,On FS9, I used to correct airport altitudes and sometimes location with different tools : AFCAD for airport position, FSTerrain to define a new "flatten" file, and JABBGL to correct runway and taxiways altitudes. Up to now, I didn't have to correct any airport in FSX, but my question is : can I use the same tools on FSX ? And if not, which tools do you use ?Thanks for your answer.Alain

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>>On FS9, I used to correct airport altitudes and sometimes>location with different tools : AFCAD for airport position,>FSTerrain to define a new "flatten" file, and JABBGL to>correct runway and taxiways altitudes. Up to now, I didn't>have to correct any airport in FSX, but my question is : can I>use the same tools on FSX ? And if not, which tools do you use>?>Thanks for your answer.>>AlainNote that JABBGL works OK for your own use -- it can be a problem on distributed sceneries since it means that modified copies of the default files are floating around. It could be a problem in places like southern california where a number of large airports that were designed as addons reside in the same default AP9 file. Also JABBGL doesn't work right for below-sea level airports.For FSX, we have the advantage that the default flattens can be excluded. One common problem is that the default flatten is too big, resulting in a drop-off. The FSX SDK has the tool shp3vec which can build the exclusion area as a polygon and create a new replacement flatten. There are a couple of front-ends to shp2vec. FSX_KML 1.05 is designed to use Gogle Earth for positioning. SbuilderX can use the manifold toolbar (for IE) in a simular manner, or use aircraft position in FSX for placement.If the actual airport elevation is wrong, there isn't an easy fix tool yet, but there is a tool in development called SDE which will decode / extract airport data to xml files. these can be hand edited and then compiled with FSX ver bglcomp. It's also posible to use AFCAD21 files from FS9, but it is necessary to merge the FS9 data with FSX data (possible from the default FSX airport) to get a true FSX AFCAD-style file. Personally I would like to see Tom Hiscox take the SDE output and use it in an updated SceneGenX, but it doesn't seem like Tom is active these days.Even modifying the airport flatten is not sufficient in some cases. KLAS and KMRY are two that I can think of off the top of my head. The only thing I have been able to do for this is to obtain source elevation data for the area, convert it to a gray-scale image so I could do a gradient fill in photoshop (actually GIMP but same idea) in the area between the airport flatten and the surrounding mesh. The sdk resample tool then builds the mesh file in my adjusted area. Here is an example. This is an elevation profile of KLAS from south looking north. The dots are approximate ends of Rwy 25R/L:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/169572.jpgNow I've added the flatten @ 2182 ft. We see the plateau on the east side. By adding a gradient, I try to get something more like the red curve:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/169573.jpgscott s..

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Hi there,mesh "filling" is certainly a useful approach. An alternative that doesn't require external mesh data is the use of sloped flattens (with SBuilderX). As long as the flatten polys are not too complex they do a very nice job. I've been using sloped flattens for some of my airfield surroundings (and rivers), Don Grovestine has used them with his CYYJ add-on, and Gary Summons is starting to use the same approach for his UK airfields: http://www.uk2000scenery.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=414.0I'm surprised that there aren't more adjustments like this for US airfields. After all, the issue has been around for many years and just because there are thousands of airports doesn't mean that we can't have adjustments at any ;-)Cheers, Holger

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>However, I have not yet noticed "ditch" problems in regards to>taxiways. Have flown to many airports throughout the western>U.S. including Las Vegas, and have not encountered this>problem.I have to ditto that statement. I haven't had a ditch experience either. IIRC, I have my resolution set to 9m and I have never used AFCAD.Strange elevations, yes.Visit the Virtual Pilot's Centerwww.flightadventures.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/Active Sky V6 Proud SupporterRadar Contact Supporter: http://www.jdtllc.com/

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The problem I have run into, is the issue of using the PUBLISHED airfield altitude data.What I am getting at is this: Assume you have an airport that has a published alt of 938 feet ASL. ...and in FS, the airport elev is also 938 feet ASL.Now, let's say that the 938 feet ASL flatten in FS yields a nasty plateau. In real life, that's a sloping runway...(see MPTO)...Let's also assume that we will not smooth the mesh and get into any of those types of mesh modifications. Let's also assume that we don't want to mess with a sloped flatten.So, (given the above limitations) the question I have is, in your all's opinion, is it better to alter the airport elevation data from the published, to say, 915 feet, thus giving less of a plateau, or is it generally best to make sure your flatten matches precisely with the published altitude data?I have always ascribed to the latter...making sure the published data matches what I put in my bgl.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

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Hi Rhett,Another thing to bear in mind that throws a further wrench into the works is that the runway threshold elevations rarely coincide with the airport's published elevation, since airports are rarely if ever flat. There is often a wide variance of elevation throughout the airport grounds. I'm not sure what location on the airport grounds is used as the basis for the airport's published elevation, but it is nearly always different from the runway threshold elevations.

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>Hi Rhett,>>Another thing to bear in mind that throws a further wrench>into the works is that the runway threshold elevations rarely>coincide with the airport's published elevation, since>airports are rarely if ever flat. There is often a wide>variance of elevation throughout the airport grounds. I'm not>sure what location on the airport grounds is used as the basis>for the airport's published elevation, but it is nearly always>different from the runway threshold elevations.Hi Justin, long time no talk :)yes that's exactly what I'm referring to. So your choices, as a designer who wishes to tweak and blend a plateau seem to be as follows:1) mod the mesh, or2) mod the flatten elevation from a value other than published, or3) eliminate the flatten and draw runways using polysOption 3) is only practical at small dirt strips where you don't have any AI. AI won't use a sloping drawn poly runway correctly. Maybe in FS11. I did an experiment with this a few months ago, and it was a neat looking sloped runway. Too bad AI don't use it well.Option 2) is bad because it will put the airfield at an elevation other than what is published. That's not good if you are a designer who likes to put things 100% to real world. Also it's bad for pilotas who expect 938 ft runway elev and get 915. That could be a bit of a surprise to a pilot!Option 1) is something I have not explored.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

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