On 11/27/2021 at 11:28 PM, Stearmandriver said:

4.  Flight model - Roll rate is dramatically better than reality.  At full aileron deflection, this model rolls more like a Pitts than a Stearman.  A Stearman does big lazy barnstorming aerobatics because that’s all it CAN do.  Even the aircraft with the upper ailerons mod can’t roll like this.  
 

 

My recollection is the first version of the Stearman was not like this. According to the developers they went to a lot of trouble to get the roll model correct.

If I recall correctly - there were a lot of unfavourable YouTube reviews from armchair experts claiming it should be "more responsive" and a series of very abusive arguments on the main forums where multiple people simply refused to believe the original was correct because apparently 'it was a bi-plane and they all turn on a dime". I believe  the developers reluctantly agreed to make it fly more like a Hollywood version than a real one. I think they may have stated multiple times that the original model was correct but some very loud and argumentative people simply refused to agree.

As the aircraft was originally a basic trainer, it makes no sense that it would have been twitchy like a Pitts ... but I suppose if that is what the customers wanted the dev really had no choice.

If we could eventually have the option to enable a "realistic" mode for those of us that want that, it would be perfect.  I do note that the faired and un-faired versions fly quite differently already.

Edited November 29, 20214 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick

8 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

 

So yeah, I think it'd be a limited market. 

None of which is to say I wouldn't love to try out such a flight model. If anyone attempts one, let me know! .

I am not here to bash the DC bird, there are enough good reviews to show that she makes the users happy. And the developer has stated honestly his philosophy.

You said that real tail draggers bite you if you are not careful enough ? I say I love simcraft which try to kill me when I am sloppy 😃. So reading all what was written, I came to the conclusion that she was not for me.

 A limited market ? The A2A, PMDG and the like seem not to complain that it is such a limited nerdy market. According to all accounts, the PMDG DC-6 is  a great sale success...  The beauty of this hobby is that a segment of the market   always looks for more complexity, even knowing that it is an asymptotic curve. The history of flight simulation is also full of people  saying that such and such flight behaviour is impossible to recreate. I remember the spin, the slip etc . They were proven wrong.

The taildragger behavior on ground in MSFS is ... perfectible but not so bad and, in my uninformed opinion, better than in P3D.  Its bad reputation comes for a great part from three kinds of people : newbies who think that you drive a powerful radial like a WW2 WB like a 172, more experienced simmers that took for granted the often tame behaviour of taildraggers in P3D and real pilots who want perfection. I have seen the same with Cold War jets. People complaining that they can’t take off or land because they don’t want to learn and practice energy management.

Agreed with the need of an excellent controller to drive the rudder. I can't understand that you  drive a taildragger  with a twisting joystick or an Xbox controller and complain that you can’t have a straight  take off roll 😁. I have the MFG pedals and they do an excellent job.

These days, I can’t stop flying the Milviz Porter. I find she is not far off of what you write here

8 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

It seems like this variability of instability, this sliding scale that increases rapidly (non-linearly) with every degree the nose deviates from centerline, 

 

Edited November 29, 20214 yr by Dominique_K

Haha well *I* don't use a twist stick or controller, I'm just saying that I understand it from a developer's standpoint - not all or most or even many simmers (relatively speaking) are willing to spend hundreds on rudder pedals.  We're a "special" breed.  😁  And it's probably not great business to build a product the large majority of your potential customers aren't going to be able to use, because unlike, say, a 737 (which I fly for a living so I can say this), flying a real Stearman can be hard.  🙂

Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to "sell you" on a product; I'm really not.  Everyone has their own perspective and that's great, I'm just enjoying the discussion.  Honestly, not that long ago I'd be in full agreement with you.  And if anyone decides to tweak the config file, I NEED to try it! 

The MV Porter has been tempting me.  But if I don't succomb to it, I know I won't be able to resist their Beaver when it comes to MSFS.  So I'll see their tailwheel physics at work eventually, for sure. 

9 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

If I recall correctly - there were a lot of unfavourable YouTube reviews from armchair experts claiming it should be "more responsive" and a series of very abusive arguments on the main forums where multiple people simply refused to believe the original was correct because apparently 'it was a bi-plane and they all turn on a dime". I believe  the developers reluctantly agreed to make it fly more like a Hollywood version than a real one. I think they may have stated multiple times that the original model was correct but some very loud and argumentative people simply refused to agree.

Grr... which "main forums" are these?   I might go have some fun.  😉

So here's another video, of aerobatics in a Stearman.  I'm in the front pit, camera is helmet-mounted on me.  Most of the maneuvers are student-flown, but the first aileron roll at 00:30 is a demo flown by me.  This roll is flown with full left aileron deflection.  Entry speed was 140mph (122kts).

"Turn on a dime".  😅

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZRTqlRWq1dB-3eW6zOuLv2W_STqjrmAB/view?usp=drivesdk

18 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Haha well *I* don't use a twist stick or controller,

The « you » was the generic you, not the « you » to whom I was responding. I should have used « one » can drive etc. And I enjoy the discussion too.

Edited November 29, 20214 yr by Dominique_K

10 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

If I recall correctly - there were a lot of unfavourable YouTube reviews from armchair experts claiming it should be "more responsive" and a series of very abusive arguments on the main forums where multiple people simply refused to believe the original was correct because apparently 'it was a bi-plane and they all turn on a dime". I believe  the developers reluctantly agreed to make it fly more like a Hollywood version than a real one. I think they may have stated multiple times that the original model was correct but some very loud and argumentative people simply refused to agree.

As the aircraft was originally a basic trainer, it makes no sense that it would have been twitchy like a Pitts ... but I suppose if that is what the customers wanted the dev really had no choice.

If we could eventually have the option to enable a "realistic" mode for those of us that want that, it would be perfect.  I do note that the faired and un-faired versions fly quite differently already.

This can not be repeated enough: Armchair pilots (myself included) are not qualified to comment on flight models. It's understandable but not right that developers are forced to change the behaviour based on comments from those who are very vocal but not necessarily knowledgable about it. Having both a realistic and a 'popular' flightmodel option might work, but we already have these options in the sim. It won't stop people from switch everything to "hard" and then complain that the flight model must be wrong simply because there expectations are off. They will still complain that "all aircraft pull to the right when I apply power" or that light trainers "hardly need rudder in turns". I even had to correct someone on another forum who said that MSFS 'sucks" because he could not steer the aircraft with his yoke when taxiing😵  Apparantly, connecting a yoke to a PC doesn't make a person a qualified pilot.

3 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Grr... which "main forums" are these?   I might go have some fun.  😉

So here's another video, of aerobatics in a Stearman.  I'm in the front pit, camera is helmet-mounted on me.  Most of the maneuvers are student-flown, but the first aileron roll at 00:30 is a demo flown by me.  This roll is flown with full left aileron deflection.  Entry speed was 140mph (122kts).

"Turn on a dime".  😅

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZRTqlRWq1dB-3eW6zOuLv2W_STqjrmAB/view?usp=drivesdk

Why would you collaborate with someone to make custom Sterman  flight mode as real as it can get in MSFSl? I'm pretty sure a lot of us will appreciate it!

Thanks for the review! I had been considering picking up this plane since I bought a VR headset. There's something about the idea of flying with an open cockpit in VR that has the potential to be a completely unique and mind-blowing experience. That and an ultralight (waffling between the Aerolite and Top Rudder).

1 hour ago, CLE_AA-5B_GrummanTiger said:

Thanks for the review! I had been considering picking up this plane since I bought a VR headset. There's something about the idea of flying with an open cockpit in VR that has the potential to be a completely unique and mind-blowing experience. That and an ultralight (waffling between the Aerolite and Top Rudder).

Well if you think that could be good in VR, you should try the Flying Dinghy!  

https://msfsaddons.com/2021/04/21/the-flying-inflatable-boat-is-real-and-is-now-available-for-msfs/

6 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

Why would you collaborate with someone to make custom Sterman  flight mode as real as it can get in MSFSl? I'm pretty sure a lot of us will appreciate it!

Well I'd be glad to, but I don't know anything about FDE tweaking.  All I could do is review the changes.  So it would come down to someone else doing all the work and me having all the fun ;).

Putting aside the taildragger behavior on the ground, the only changes I'd really make are toning down the roll rate, and eliminating the delay in engine acceleration off of idle when airborne.  I found pitch response to be very good once I removed the sensitivity curves from my stick's pitch axis (the plane IS pretty sensitive in pitch; students often tend to overcontrol the flare at first).  Yaw feels good as well. 

13 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Well I'd be glad to, but I don't know anything about FDE tweaking.  All I could do is review the changes.  So it would come down to someone else doing all the work and me having all the fun ;).

Putting aside the taildragger behavior on the ground, the only changes I'd really make are toning down the roll rate, and eliminating the delay in engine acceleration off of idle when airborne.  I found pitch response to be very good once I removed the sensitivity curves from my stick's pitch axis (the plane IS pretty sensitive in pitch; students often tend to overcontrol the flare at first).  Yaw feels good as well. 

I'm pretty sure folks who know how to tweak would appreciate your input. We just need to spread the word of opportunity to make realism mod for Sterman!

I wish I could edit my OP to add this, but apparently there's a time limit on that.  So it'll have to go here. 

I spent time tonight fiddling with the MSFS sensitivity controls.  There was much I did not understand about them, and so I've been using the default controls profile for all airplanes in MSFS.  I see now that this was a mistake, especially because the default profile seems to include 50% curves for some reason (I did eliminate the curves early on, but didn't go further.)   I also had no understanding of extremity dead zone or reactivity, so hadn't messed with them.

Well, using the control profile pictured, I've now got the Stearman feeling great.  A full-deflection aileron roll from 120kts entry speed now takes around 6 seconds.  This is on average what I've timed them at from my real-world videos doing this.  It's about twice as long as they took in the DCD Stearman before I adjusted my controls, and since I added almost a 50% extremity dead zone to the ailerons, that makes sense. 

Extremity dead zone + reactivity now gives a real sense of the weight of the airplane, and feels just about right.  Very happy with this, and happy to learn how powerful these newer sensitivity controls can be. I hate curves so I was rarely in the habit of adjusting these settings, but it's great to see how much control we now have over our controls, so to speak. 

X axis is roll, Y axis is pitch:

 

1 hour ago, Stearmandriver said:

There was much I did not understand about them,

Welcome to the club. After a year and a half, most of us are in the same boat.

The tuning by a seasoned pilot is always useful for the vulgum pecus !

Edited December 2, 20214 yr by Dominique_K

@Stearmandriver  Thanks for that!  I will adjust mine to the same as your for the Stearman.

And the good news is, these settings can be saved per aircraft I believe.  Now then...  I just have to find out how to do it. 

3 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

 

I spent time tonight fiddling with the MSFS sensitivity controls.  There was much I did not understand about them, and so I've been using the default controls profile for all airplanes in MSFS.

 

 

This is very interesting, as it the later comment that control settings can be altered for each airplane - I did not know this at all! Thanks for sharing, and glad the Stearmans are responding the way they should be with this adjustment!