Electric Cars...

[martin-w 3,235]

3 hours ago, rjack1282 said:

had a local electrician install a NEMA 14-50 receptacle in my garage next to my main panel for 350.00 USD. 

 

Seems to me you pay a lot less than we do. Decent electricians here charge 93 quid an hour. Plus VAT and materials. London is even more of a rip off.

 

[martin-w 3,235]

1 hour ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

No trouble selling our house ... has been about 3 years now, it's still standing 🙂

I rewired my entire race car (Lotus), not a single electrical issue and it's hard to ensure quality ground on an all Aluminum monocoque chassis.

 

Yeah, like I say, in theory you could require your entire house and contravene every IEE regulation known to man, and the police couldn't come along and arrest you. The consequences for your contravention of the regs, is in terms of any issues that arise that necessitate an insurance claim. No insurer will pay up for an electrical fire if you yourself have no certificates for notifiable work. The first forms you get from a solicitor when you sell your house, enquire about any electrical work that's been done that's "notifiable". If you cant provide those certificates then the sale is held up. If you still can't supply them then I would assume an EICR would be demanded by the purchasers solicitor, in which case a qualified electrician would carry out the EICR and test all aspects of the installation.

Not really a good idea to fit your own EV charger here in the UK, given the long list of factors that need to be considered before the power company agree to the installation, not to mention the lack of certificates that would result. The big one is the main fuse rating, Its in the service head before the meter and is the property of the power company. It has seals on it to ensure no tampering. This guy needs to be 100 amps, given that an EV can draw 30 amps plus and effectively sap half your entire house supply. 

 

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No trouble selling our house

 

I'm surprised your house selling regs are less stringent than ours and very surprised that your electrical regulations are less stringent. I guess it varies from state to state though?

Car wiring is one thing, but house wiring is another ball game with the consequences of bad work in the video below. This was a shower mini consumer unit where an 60 map bale was lose and arched out. Electricians use torque screwdrivers on consumer units (fuse boards) here now for this precise reason.

 

 

 

[birdguy 3,943]

I mentioned before my house is close to or perhaps even 100 years old.  There are two breaker boxes; one in the basement and one in the spare bedroom not to mention the main breaker box on the outside of the house where the main power comes in.  Each window air conditioner has it's own breaker and line that goes to the outside breaker box.

Most of the outlets in the house are old two prong outlets although there is one three prong outlet in every room.  If I need to plug in the three prong device into a two prong plug I use an adapter.

We've been here close to 30 years now and have had no electrical problems.  Whenever we added a widow air conditioner we had an electrician run a line from the main outside breaker box to the window.

The house was built piecemeal.  It began life as a two room house.  Three bedrooms were added later.  (The master bedroom is larger than our living room).  Then the enclosed back porch and garage.  It has a finished basement with a fireplace.

I've not been able to find what year the house built.  It first show up in the records in 1930 but I'm told it was built before that.

It's a stone house masonry house.  I've been told the stone fence that surrounds the property on three sides was built by German prisoners of war during World War 2.  They did a lot of work for residents and were paid for it.  A couple of them came back to Roswell to live after the war was over.

Noel

Edited March 29, 2022 by birdguy

[martin-w 3,235]

41 minutes ago, birdguy said:

I mentioned before my house is close to or perhaps even 100 years old. 

 

I wonder how old the wiring is. In the UK the authorities recommend a house rewire every 25 years. Of course, pretty much nobody does that. A house I bought about 29 years ago still had the old rubber insulation and no earth sleeving, just bare copper. Have you had your wiring inspected, just in case there any issues?

 

45 minutes ago, birdguy said:

It's a stone house masonry house.  I've been told the stone fence that surrounds the property on three sides was built by German prisoners of war during World War 2. 

 

Same thing happened on Sark, an island a short 30 minute ferry ride away from me. The Germans were occupying the island, and when they evacuated back to Germany at the end of the war, some were left behind and taken prisoner. They built what you see below. Prior, and on a windy day, the kids had to go from big Sark to little Sark on hands and knees so they didn't get blown off the cliff. 😁

 

 

 

[martin-w 3,235]

25 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I don’t doubt bad wiring is done both by certified professionals and non-certified.

I’d recommend you inspect some of your household wiring power outlets, I’m willing to bet you’ll find some shoddy workmanship by a professional and was certified by an inspector.  
 

On numerous occasions I’ve found power outlets with loose wires, not grounded correctly, and some pushed into the conduit wrong such they actually trigger the in plug fuse to trip. … all certified by an inspector.

In terms of home sale in CA, you need to provide disclosure and the buyer can either accept or reject or ask for inspection and if need a certified fix, then we haggle of who’s going to pay for it.
 

Cheers Rob.

 

 

Its that word again Rob... "probability". The probability of a well trained electrician doing dodgy work in your home is lower than Joe the butcher down the street doing dodgy electrical work. 😁 Yes, you do get electricians who do bad work, it certainly does happen, but its less likely.

In the UK we have a "competent persons scheme" which does cause issues. The competent person scheme is intended for people like builders, kitchen fitters and the like, who aren't qualified electricians, it enables them to do "some" electrical work that a person who hasn't done the course shouldn't do. They then self-certify. Consequently qualified electricians come across dodgy work quite often. Without  thorough training, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

I'm in a rented place with wiring that isn't too bad but not perfect. Of the homes I've had previously, I've never experienced "very" bad pro electrical installation, lack of care and attention with minor cosmetic things, but nothing serious.

I have experienced horrendous amateur attempts though. In one of my houses the previous owner had striped out the inner cores and notched them into the joists, because he couldn't be bothered to drill a hole 2 inches down in the middle of the joist. Anybody nailing through the board would have gone straight through a live cable. Something else he did... its permissible to power lights, in this case wall lights, from a socket on the ring, now what you're supposed to do is run 2.5mm twin and earth from the socket to a switched fused connection unit, then 1.5mm twin and earth from there, but the SFCU MUST have a 5 amp fuse to accommodate the smaller dimeter lighting cable.  This guy had run 1.5mm twin and earth straight from the socket to a switch then lights. So the 1.5mm cable was allocated a 30 amp fuse in the consumer unit rather than a 5 amp fuse for the 1.5mm cable. I'm sure I don't need to tell you the danger that posed. He then, failed to finish the installation of the wall lights but left the cable in the wall live!!! 

 

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… all certified by an inspector.

 

You must have some very bad inspectors. Here the EICR's are VERY stringent. There's a whole gamut of tests that have to be done with some quite expensive equipment. All the forms need to be then completed with all of the readings the electrician detected. They do make mistakes of course and there are dodgy electricians around, but yes, we seem to be orders of magnitude more stringent here than you are in the US.

[birdguy 3,943]

I'm not concerned about selling tis house.  I'll die in it.

I have not inspected the outlets.  As long as they work I'm satisfied.  On two occasions I had an electrician check intermittent plugs and he repaired loose wires.  I don't touch anything that carries more than 25 volts.

Noel

[martin-w 3,235]

3 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

FYI, wiring a Lotus to operate correctly and safely in race environment is far far more complex than wiring power in a home, several orders of magnitude more complex.

Cheers Rob

 

 ⚡ I'm sure you can imagine the devastation to entire family's caused by house fires. I'll definitely give you a special electrical cat point for being clever with your car wiring, but I think you'll find the voltage is a bit lower. 

Check out the UK IEE regulations. Its so complex with so many regulations that they write books about how to interpret the real book. 

You seem to be a bit defensive. 😁 Don't be, I've done plenty of my own electrical work over the years. Nobody is criticising you for it, just telling you how its done here and how stringent they are...

I've worked on cars too. 

 

Please find below your award and note that its brown for live, blue for neutral and green and yellow striped for earth. 🤣

 

Robs special "I'm clever with car wiring" cat point award...

⚡⚡😺⚡⚡ - SPECIAL CLEVER WITH CAR WIRING!

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,235]

15 minutes ago, birdguy said:

I'm not concerned about selling tis house.  I'll die in it.

I have not inspected the outlets.  As long as they work I'm satisfied.  On two occasions I had an electrician check intermittent plugs and he repaired loose wires.  I don't touch anything that carries more than 25 volts.

Noel

 

Yes Noel, but you come from Roswell. That means that when the saucer crashed, the quantum field generator was ejected. What happens if the powe cell is still active and it overloads your house wiring??????? 🤖

[martin-w 3,235]

2 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

 we're adults, we should have the option to accept liability.

Cheers, Rob.

 

Its not just about you accepting liability. The regulations aren't just about the guy that did his own wring  Rob. its about how safe the house is for his family and for the family's that buy the house after him, and the house next door that might catch fire too, and any victors that visit the house etc.

The regulations are there for a reason and I support them and they certainly have saved many lives. That's based on my own experience in a house where dodgy wiring was done that put me and my family at risk, as mentioned above.

High voltage home electricity supply is potentially lethal and obviously regulations must be in place for that reason. 

However I have done plenty of wring myself over the years, to a high standard, in accordance with the regulations, and after checking I am allowed to do it without notification. And hopefully that situation remains, and the authorities don't go the route of some nations where its an offence to do absolutely anything in this respect.

More importantly, did you like your one of a kind special award cat point? And apologies for forgetting that live is brown in the UK. ⚡😺

[birdguy 3,943]

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

Yes Noel, but you come from Roswell. That means that when the saucer crashed, the quantum field generator was ejected. What happens if the powe cell is still active and it overloads your house wiring

After I'm gone IDGAS anymore.

My walls are lath and plaster, not drywall.  It would be pretty expensive to rip open the walls to inspect the wiring and then reinstall drywall.  That's an expense someone living on a limited income cannot afford.

I doubt anybody would want to buy a house this old.  If they did they should be prepared to rebuild the interior.  In all likelihood this house will sit here after I'm gone until someone decides to build a new house on the lot and tear this one down.  

Noel

Edited March 29, 2022 by birdguy

[dave2013 1,130]

16 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

1.  If you're comfortable with electricity and wiring, install a charge station yourself and save money.

2.  If you're not comfortable with electricity and wiring, hire a professional to shift the liability.

I've done a lot of minor electrical work on houses over the years as well, mostly installing new outlets, switches, and light fixtures.

Connecting a charger to the main electrical panel is on a whole other level, however.  I've no doubt that regulations in every state require that something like this be done by a licensed electrician.  I could be wrong, though.

I do know that home inspectors will ask about things like modifications to the electrical panel or any significant electrical installations and may ask for proof that it was done by a licensed contractor, so you are taking a little risk in doing it yourself.

Like you said, in most cases just disclosing that you did it is enough if the buyer is OK with it.

Dave

[sightseer 895]

4 hours ago, birdguy said:

decides to build a new house on the lot and tear this one down.  

That's what happened to my Aunt's house which started as a single room Civil War bunkhouse - a log cabin.  The living room was added and then a kitchen and an indoor bathroom.  The living room had such a slant that you almost had to climb uphill to get to the front door.  As a kid I would let my matchbox cars go near the front door and they would roll down to the kitchen where a room divider stopped them.

[birdguy 3,943]

Back to electric cars.

For those who don't know AAA is the largest Auto club in the United States offering road maps, trip planning and even auto insurance.  The magazine is well worth reading for the trip articles it publishes every issue.

This afternoon I got my April-May issue of the magazine and it had an article about electric cars writeen by an automobile tester.

It's the first article in EVs I have read that wasn't written by someone smitten with EVs as the vehicle for everyone.  Noy panning EVs but while saying they are excellent for short distance commuting definitely not recommending them for rod trips

It starts off thus:

I'm sitting on a curb with 3 of my colleagues at a mini-mart in California's Sierra Nevada foothills. We're swatting flies, reapplying sunblock, and waiting for our electric vehicle to charge when a Subaru Outback, bikes loaded on the back, pulls up to a gas pump. In 7 minutes (I timed them), the family fills the tank, tosses their recyclables, and even uses the bathroom. Then they're off, leaving us in their dust.

My crew had pulled in to the spartan charging station next door nearly an hour earlier—and our EV is still plugged in. Once it's charged, we'll hop back on the road, only to repeat this ritual in a parking lot about 3 hours and 180 miles from here. The irony isn't lost on us: We're experiencing what's billed as the automotive future, yet the family in the Subaru is the one on its way to a weekend of fun.

I highlighted a couple of paragraphs.

There is also the time and cost required to charge a vehicle once it's hooked up.  Most vehicles require about an hour on a Level 3 commercial "fast charger" to achieve a 20% to an 80% charge - that's from not quite empty to not quite full.  A full charge takes about 45 minutes.  And using a commercial charger costs more than charging at home - sometimes nearly as much as gasoline on a per mile basis.

For all these reasons road trips in an EV takes longer and is more challenging than road trips with a gasoline vehicle.  On several recent test with late-model EVs, we spent more than 25% of out time charging them.  That's a lot more than modern families are accustomed to, making planning and flexibility the watchwords of an EV road trip.  That's  why most households that use an EV for commutes also own a gasoline vehicle for road trips.

My Prius starts looking better and better every day even though I don't have any road trips planned.  My "I'd like to have an EV enthusiasm is about drained."

Noel

[dave2013 1,130]

39 minutes ago, birdguy said:

Noy panning EVs but while saying they are excellent for short distance commuting definitely not recommending them for rod trips

This is the kind of stuff I've been talking about where EVs are concerned.  I'm glad that impartial people are writing articles like this as I always think that people should know *all* the facts about anything.

That doesn't mean that I don't support EVs.  I do.  I just think based on what I've read that they are more practical, and even ideal, for short commutes, but not for long trips.  At least not right now.

I've no doubt that over time, due to improving technology, we'll have EVs with a standard 400-500 mile range and batteries that can be charged in 15 minutes.  I'm talking about standard, affordable vehicles here, not some prototype or experimental design.

Add some very thin, super duper solar panels to the roof and they would be even better.

We'll get there.

Dave

[martin-w 3,235]

12 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

It's always about accepting liability (you get on an aircraft and the value of  your life is around $175,000 if the plane crashes and you die)

 

And the airline industry is one of the most heavily regulated around in terms of electrical and mechanical safety. 

 

12 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I'm for appropriate regulation also, but I'm not against full disclosures with both parties having to agree to conditions. 

 

This is appropriate regulation in the UK. I'm not sure what you mean by "full disclosure both parties agreeing to conditions". That's exactly what does happen in the UK, in that you receive documentation to fill in, in regard to any notifiable electrical work you have done.  And its important for that to be notifiable because if its done wrongly (which happens all the time) then it may not be the person that buys the house that discovers it in terms of something injurious to their health, it may the be the buyer who buys the house after them, or the buyer after that. if you mean "agreeing to the condition that the buyer has done their own electrical work that "may" be potentially dodgy, then again, the person buying the house may be taking a risk, but what about the buyer after that, or the next, or the next and then further down the line... that junction box for a shower, under the floorboards, that's not terminated properly and arcing out burns the house down. Remember what I said happened to me? What I found in my wall, a live cable, and inner cores under notched into floorboards. It was potentially deadly and I had no idea it was there. I had no opportunity to "agree to the condition". 

 

12 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Going too far with regulations is just as bad as going too little with regulations, it's a balance that makes sense.  If I were to extrapolate your argument further, then every single time you plug any electrical device into a power outlet, it should be done by a qualified professional because they could start a fire, electrocute themselves or others, etc. etc. 

 

Nobody is going to far with regulations. And yes, its about a balance. There is a balance. There's quite a bit you can do yourself in the UK that isn't notifiable, what is notifiable makes perfect sense. Not sure why you are using such an extreme example of plugging in an appliance, and there's no requirement to "extrapolate further". Extrapolating further and taking it to the extreme isn't relevant to our discussion, nobody is doing that, as you said, its about a balance. I suspect you are biased in favour of the balance being further to the "hardly any regulations" side of the equation. 😁 I feel that urge too, as I'm someone who has done all manner of DIY work, cars, houses, you name it. So when I hear of new electrical regulation appearing (which I enjoy doing)  I get the "let me do what I want" feeling and "don't spoil my fun" attitude. But then I allow my sensible self to intervene and remind me that the regulations in the UK are balanced, we are still allowed to do some electrical work without notification, in theory we could do what the hell we wanted, and that if we did, it would be perfectly reasonable for the buyers solicitor to ask for proper electrical surveys and EICR's before the sale. 

 

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1.  If you're comfortable with electricity and wiring, install a charge station yourself and save money.

 

Yes Rob, but the Dunning Kruger effect is real. There's a plethora of DIY'ers that think they "are comfortable" think they are "proficient" think they "know what they are doing"... but don't. When I've done electrical work I check the IEE regulations and make sure I do everything precisely to the regs, very high standard of work, at times better than a pro electrician as I have more time. I also check that I am allowed to do it myself. Trouble is, people can be arrogant, people can be stupid, people can think they are more competent than they are. And we see the aftermath of that all the time in terms of DIY electrical work. I experienced it as I mentioned above. You may be proficient and do good work, I may be proficient and do good work, but the regulations are there to ensure electrical installations are safe and that we are protected from morons who think they are smarter than they are. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by martin-w