Cessna 414 and proper mixture

[Boeing_Driver 77]

Hello gents,

 

I'm wondering if anyone can provide me with some pointers on proper usage of the mixture controls with the C414. So far, it seems rather haphazard in trying to achieve the best EGT. Should the mixture be gradually decreased throughout a long climb?

As a separate question, what should I expect to achieve in terms of maximum altitude for this aircraft?

[ryanbatc 13,233]

1 minute ago, Boeing_Driver said:

Hello gents,

 

I'm wondering if anyone can provide me with some pointers on proper usage of the mixture controls with the C414. So far, it seems rather haphazard in trying to achieve the best EGT. Should the mixture be gradually decreased throughout a long climb?

As a separate question, what should I expect to achieve in terms of maximum altitude for this aircraft?

Well since the turbochargers are screwed up by asobo yes you'll have to lean as you climb.  I know this is wrong technically for turbochargers but I'll use 50-100 LOP as I climb.  So if you to see the needles peak out, you'd need leaning till the temps drop 50-100 degrees more.

Service ceiling is FL300 but typically you'd fly this in the teens to FL250 or so.

[CaptainNick 576]

And this is why the manual states to turn on Auto Mixture (i know...it pains me too) due to the issues within msfs. Hopefully asobo can fix the issue and we can all get some good mixture controls going on.

[Boeing_Driver 77]

1 minute ago, CaptainNick said:

And this is why the manual states to turn on Auto Mixture (i know...it pains me too) due to the issues within msfs. Hopefully asobo can fix the issue and we can all get some good mixture controls going on.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to do that. I'm finding if I pull the mixture back, just one click too far, the engine dies and has to be restarted (a real piston would be fine if you simply pushed the mixture back in a bit).

[ndts 62]

The mixture simulation in MSFS seems to be basically a copy/paste of the very broken model FSX and P3d use, since they seem to have the same over-sensitivity to altitude changes and completely ignore the effects of forced induction. 

I don't have the 414, but for other turbocharged aircraft, I've decided the least annoying way to deal with that issue is to have automixture on for climb, turn it off and lean for cruise, then turn it back on for descent. There's actually a "set best mixture" option in MSFS you can assign to a button, but Asobo completely broke it a couple of updates ago (it now brings the mixture to cutoff), so it's not useable right now.

 

[Andre92 38]

Can this be fixed by setting fuel_air_auto_mixture=1 in the engines.cfg? It is currently set to its default value 0.
According to the SDK:

Sets whether the automixture is available (TRUE, 1) or not (FALSE, 0). If present the mixture will automatically be set for maximum performance. When set to manual, the mixture needs to be manually adjusted to maintain the required performance.

Default value is 0 (FALSE).

[liamp51 541]

On 3/27/2022 at 5:26 PM, ryanbatc said:

Well since the turbochargers are screwed up by asobo yes you'll have to lean as you climb.  I know this is wrong technically for turbochargers but I'll use 50-100 LOP as I climb.  So if you to see the needles peak out, you'd need leaning till the temps drop 50-100 degrees more.

Service ceiling is FL300 but typically you'd fly this in the teens to FL250 or so.

So if it was working correctly, one would just leave the mixtures in the fully rich setting right? I'm assuming the fuel computer would automatically lean/richen as needed without pilot input (that way the mixtures levers would act more like the condition lever in turboprops?).

[ryanbatc 13,233]

I'm not sure about fully rich.  I think you may learn them just a touch.  I don't have any rw experience with turbochargers.

Eventually you'd lean them a bit more at fl210 in this plane.

[Boeing_Driver 77]

Leaning a turbo charged engine like this usually means trying to obtain the highest EGT, or thereabouts. Having said that, Asobo has a long ways to go towards implementing this procedure as one would do in real life.

 

As a side note, the listed maximum range on this aircraft is quite impossible to achieve without summoning an in-flight refueling plane.

[Matchstick 1,945]

6 minutes ago, Boeing_Driver said:

As a side note, the listed maximum range on this aircraft is quite impossible to achieve without summoning an in-flight refueling plane.

Yep, the fuel consumption is a long way off the book values right now.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Matchstick

[ryanbatc 13,233]

12 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

Yep, the fuel consumption is a long way off the book values right now.

It's actually doubled - and it was something the dev forgot to remove before release hehe.  It'll be fixed with the new update coming soon TM.

[ndts 62]

12 hours ago, liamp51 said:

So if it was working correctly, one would just leave the mixtures in the fully rich setting right? I'm assuming the fuel computer would automatically lean/richen as needed without pilot input (that way the mixtures levers would act more like the condition lever in turboprops?).

You're mostly correct. 

On a turbocharged engine, the turbocharger makes the engine perform as though it's at sea level, until it hits the "critical altitude" for the turbo, at which point engine performance begins to drop with altitude.

Since the 441 doesn't have FADEC, the mixtures work exactly like they do on any other airplane, so the pilot would set the mixtures for takeoff (and maybe reset them for climb), and the turbochargers mean the fuel/air mixture stays essentially the same throughout the climb. 

Once at cruise, the pilot on a turbocharged airplane still has to lean the engines correctly, since the mixture control is "dumb" and can only maintain the fuel/ratio the pilot set them for.

[BR4593 18]

Anyone got any documentation for the 414 with RAM conversion as the Flysimware addond simulates? I couldn't find any on the web... 

Edited March 30, 2022 by BR4593

[Gregg_Seipp 573]

On 3/27/2022 at 6:26 PM, ryanbatc said:

Well since the turbochargers are screwed up by asobo yes you'll have to lean as you climb.  I know this is wrong technically for turbochargers but I'll use 50-100 LOP as I climb.  So if you to see the needles peak out, you'd need leaning till the temps drop 50-100 degrees more.

Service ceiling is FL300 but typically you'd fly this in the teens to FL250 or so.

When will we ever have proper engines with turbo chargers in the sim.  It's been this way in FSX, P3D, and now this one.  X-Plane may be ugly...but it gets that and turboprops right.  

In terms of this plane, yeah, I fly lean of peak too.

[skully 1,053]

4 hours ago, BR4593 said:

Anyone got any documentation for the 414 with RAM conversion as the Flysimware addond simulates? I couldn't find any on the web... 

https://www.ramaircraft.com/performance414

Cessna 414Stock Airplane vs. RAM Series VI

Primary Specifications	Cessna 414	RAM 335 hp Series VI
Engine Model: Continental - TSIO-520	-J	-NB
Horsepower:	310	335
TBO - hours	1,400	1,600
Fuel - with 63 gal. Aux. - useable - gallons	163	163
Takeoff Manifold Pressure @ 2700 RPM	36”	41”
Takeoff Runway Acceleration - 0 to 100 mph	25 sec.	19 sec.
Twin Climb - ISA - Cessna @ 6,350 lbs. / RAM @ 6,510	1580 fpm	1900 fpm
Single Climb - ISA - Cessna @ 6,350 lbs. / RAM @ 6,510	240 fpm	310 fpm
Climb Power - ISA + 30°F - RPM & MP	2450 & 31.5”	2500 & 35.0”
Cruise Climb - SL to 18,000 ft - min.	24	18
Cruise @ 75% - ISA - 20,000 ft. - ktas	205	218
Cruise @ 65% - ISA - 20,000 ft. - ktas	190	203
Cruise @ 55% - ISA - 20,000 ft. - ktas	175	188
Useful Load Increase - lbs.	NA	+415
Ramp Weight - lbs.	NA	6,800
Gross Weight - lbs.	6,350	6,765
Landing Weight - lbs.	6,200	6,430
Zero Fuel Weight - lbs.	6,165	6,165