Hello,

I have a question regarding ILS use in the beech king air. I fly with flight plans from LNM, exported to pln, opened in MSFS, used with stock ATC.

I finally figured out how to set ILS frequency and (theoretically) start the approach in the AP in the king air. However, when I activated apr mode yesterday, on final, the plane started turning in circles. Once corrected by cutting AP and lining up once more, CDI could only be set to VOR,not LOC (ils was still set correctly in nav1).

So I had to do approach and landing manually, again.

Any ideas on possible causes, including errors on my part? But: Please do not tell me to not use the MSFS ATC, I know it's far from OK, but the commercial non-live alternatives have their own problems, and I do not have the time to invest in learning VATSIM properly. I am happy though, if that's what it takes, to manually insert the Flight Plan in the FMS rather than loading it through MSFS world screen.

Thank you!

Edited January 15, 20233 yr by Gumbodadfs

11 hours ago, Gumbodadfs said:

CDI could only be set to VOR,not LOC (ils was still set correctly in nav1)

Not sure what you are running into, but setting the CDI to VOR1 and setting NAV1 to the ILS frequency should display the localizer and glideslope indicators in the HSI.  If these are not visible, there in no point in pushing APR on the autopilot.

13 hours ago, Gumbodadfs said:

I finally figured out how to set ILS frequency and (theoretically) start the approach in the AP in the king air.

The stock King Air is one of the few aircraft I haven't tried before and I thought, 'this should be straightforward'.  

BUT  The whole FMS seems to be non-operational and there seemed no way whatsoever so even see what the NAV frequencies are, let alone adjust them!  I failed completely - even to get out of GPS mode.

Anyone got this particular model sorted? 

Is there a magic switch that makes it all spring into action or is it, indeed, a non-functional FMS?

 

14 hours ago, Gumbodadfs said:

Any ideas on possible causes, including errors on my part?

I totally abhor GA glass cockpits in the sim but thought I'd have a look at the King Air after reading your post.  If anything that experience confirmed my opinion.  However after a few minutes of frantic button-pushing on the downwind I sussed it out and the plane made a faultless ils intercept and approach.  So I think I know what happened to you - apologies in advance if I'm wrong and you already know all this.

So, to tune the Nav receiver, as you probably know you SPLIT one of the screens, click the bottom tab to get to the menu, then click on NAV1 to get to the tuning screen (see why I hate 'em?).  The gotcha here is that this is the STANDBY frequency not the ACTIVE one, so the frequency you see there is not the one being tuned.  You have to click XFER to make that frequency active, and then the display will show what was previously the active frequency and is now the standby.  I haven't read the manual, but I couldn't find a way to display the active frequency except by XFER-ing it back to standby.

You should in any case always verify you're really tuned to and receiving a navaid before engaging the autopilot to it, the traditional way is to enable the audio and listen to the Morse identifier.  The glass-cockpit alternative is to go to the PFD setup page - where you select the CDI Source - and set a bearing pointer to NAV1.  Besides giving you a pointer (which I don't think it should for a localiser), there's also a little tab near the HSI with the station identifier and the distance to it.  The Bearing Pointer selector, as well as the CDI Source selector, automatically show VOR or LOC depending on the station tuned - if  yours was showing VOR you certainly weren't tuned to what you think you were!

 

 

Thank you all for the reactions, and it's a relief that you seem to run into similar things... anyway, I know how to tune the NAV1 to the ILS frequency, so that's fine. The thing that happened was that all was set (ILS tuned in NAV1, and indeed, I used xfer..., as well as CDI set to NAV1 initially). I then made the turn to final, and during the turn pressed apr. My recall is a bit hazy now but I know that the localiser/ILS was locked in because it showed in the little tab next to the heading/pitch/speed/VS indicator. I also think there was a GS bug next to the VS indicator, and, GS below the AP indication at the top of the screen. Anyway, then, instead of capturing the glideslope, the plane started turning in circles. After I had dealt with that, that's when the CDI would not capture anything except the VOR, and the ILS appeared lost. It could well have been that I was both too high and too close for the system to lock on to the GS - I did not really descend during the whole episode which maybe I should have.

16 hours ago, AJZip said:

The stock King Air is one of the few aircraft I haven't tried before and I thought, 'this should be straightforward'.  

BUT  The whole FMS seems to be non-operational and there seemed no way whatsoever so even see what the NAV frequencies are, let alone adjust them!  I failed completely - even to get out of GPS mode.

Anyone got this particular model sorted? 

Is there a magic switch that makes it all spring into action or is it, indeed, a non-functional FMS?

This took me a long time to figure out. Basically the screen is a "touch screen" so you can click directly. Clicking on the heading will split the screen and get you a series of options at the bottom "map", "proc", and something else I forget but gives you the same when clicked, i.e. a series of mode buttons. On that you can click nav frequencies, that in turn allows you to set ILS in NAV 1 or 2.

to change from GPS, click on the crs indicator in the main map, and you get a screen that allows you to set CDI to GPS or VOR etc.

4 hours ago, Gumbodadfs said:

This took me a long time to figure out. Basically the screen is a "touch screen" so you can click directly. Clicking on the heading will split the screen and get you a series of options at the bottom "map", "proc", and something else I forget but gives you the same when clicked, i.e. a series of mode buttons. On that you can click nav frequencies, that in turn allows you to set ILS in NAV 1 or 2.

to change from GPS, click on the crs indicator in the main map, and you get a screen that allows you to set CDI to GPS or VOR etc.

OK - got it, thanks.

Well, and I don't know whether it is the modelling or the actual glass cockpit...but what a horrible, horrible set up 😄

IRL a lot of my job was about error-proofing industrial processes - making it easier for an operator to get it right than wrong.  Well, if ever there was a manual written of 'What NOT to do', this would be an ideal example.

And so - I just did the short flight from EGNX to EGBB Rwy33.  Luckily a familiar route...

Thanks for the tips above - without them I would have been totally stumped.  But in summary:

- I found the Flight Planning mighty, mighty confusing.  Trying to get a waypoint added in the right place was just so much more difficult that it should have been.

- Once airborne, the AP engaged OK and NAV followed the magenta line

- But I could NOT get the system to activate my requested approach.  I chose ILS33, I tried 'Load', I tried 'Load and Activate'  I tried 'Activate'.  Nope - wasn't having any of it.

- But my waypoints while in GPS were going to get me in the right direction, heading towards the runway at the right angle

- I found the button to input NAV1.  Why doesn't the active Nav frequency show on any of the main screen views???  It surely can't be like this in real life - it would never get flight certification!  Input of the NAV1 frequency is displayed in huge letters...and, easy to miss, in the teeniest, weeniest letters on the screen next to the NAV code you have just entered is the warning that 'The Active Code is xyz' - not the one I'd just entered.  I switched them but because there wasn't anywhere else where this code seemed to be displayed, I had to go back into the innards two or three times to make sure that now the teeny letters did show the correct freq and that I hadn't accidentally switched it back when exiting that part of the nested button maze!

-  When I was about 10km from the airport, I did as you say, clicked the compass which got me the CDI Source pop up and let me choose LOC1 .  My magenta line would have taken me to Runway15 even though I had chosen Runway 33 (and ACT had confirmed Rway33) but, luckily, the final waypoint was in the right place when I abandoned the magenta line and switched the source from GPS to LOC1

- I pressed APR with the diamond a bar above and the white 'GS' lit up.  Phew!  It subsequently captured both the localiser and glide slope and brought me into a decent landing.

But that it did was more by luck than judgement.  There were so many things that seemed to be designed to get it wrong rather than right, it wouldn't have surprised me one bit if, like you, I'd gone into tight circles off the flight path.

So my guess is that there was something, some button that you pressed but that it didn't activate, some frequency that you put in but it didn't register, that allowed it to go where it wanted to go rather than where the you, the pilot, asked it to.

It surely has to be poor modelling of the actual flight management system/glass cockpit?  It's a pity because the modelling of the aircraft is actually quite nice...but I won't be flying it again in a hurry.

 

5 hours ago, Gumbodadfs said:

that's when the CDI would not capture anything except the VOR, and the ILS appeared lost. It could well have been that I was both too high and too close for the system to lock on to the GS - I did not really descend during the whole episode which maybe I should have

This is entirely possible.  I don't know of any aircraft, once you've overshot the ILS, that will recover other than (probably banned in real life) disengaging the AP, manually getting back onto the glide path and then re-engaging.   And many of the modelled aircraft (and probably most of the real ones) will miss the glide path if your initial altitude, speed, approach angle and on some, even the right configuration of flaps/undercarriage, etc are not within design limits.

2 hours ago, AJZip said:

It surely has to be poor modelling of the actual flight management system/glass cockpit?  It's a pity because the modelling of the aircraft is actually quite nice...but I won't be flying it again in a hurry.

As I said, I liked the aircraft itself.  I did some hunting around and found the Black Square King Air 350 Analog version available through Just Flight.  Quite expensive for what it is - just an avionics and internals enhancement - it uses the stock external modelling and, presumably, power/aerodynamics -  but boy, what a difference!

On 1/17/2023 at 7:58 AM, AJZip said:

As I said, I liked the aircraft itself.  I did some hunting around and found the Black Square King Air 350 Analog version available through Just Flight.  Quite expensive for what it is - just an avionics and internals enhancement - it uses the stock external modelling and, presumably, power/aerodynamics -  but boy, what a difference!

Yes that is my assessment as well.  After a lot of poking around I managed to figure out the Glass displays in the default Kingair but it was a very frustrating experience. However I prefer aircraft with modern avionics so not all that taken by the Black Square makeover and it's excessive price for what you get - even if every button is animated!  In the real world any Kingair with steam gauges would be quite dated and these older aircraft have airworthiness directives after a number of crashes related to airframe issues.  I miss the F1 Kingair 200 with it's very capable G1000 that flew in FSX and P3D.

Bruce

On 1/17/2023 at 3:08 AM, AJZip said:

But that it did was more by luck than judgement.  There were so many things that seemed to be designed to get it wrong rather than right, it wouldn't have surprised me one bit if, like you, I'd gone into tight circles off the flight path.

So my guess is that there was something, some button that you pressed but that it didn't activate, some frequency that you put in but it didn't register, that allowed it to go where it wanted to go rather than where the you, the pilot, asked it to.

It surely has to be poor modelling of the actual flight management system/glass cockpit?  It's a pity because the modelling of the aircraft is actually quite nice...but I won't be flying it again in a hurry.

 

Hi, selective quoting here, took me a long time to get back, because I'm quite taken by work etc and don't have nearly enough time to fly. But I managed a flight last night (trying round the world, about one third of the way). Anyway, tried the ILS approach again. Flight plan was LNM, from Noto penisula to Osaka (Itami), IFR low altitude airways. All good until I got to the last waypoint (ITE) before basically overflying the airport from the North for a STAR programmed u-turn at IKOMA to line up for ILS 32L. I get to ITE, and lo and behold, the plane switches itself to LOC1 (which I had programmed but not activated yet in AP) and starts turning towards the ILS in the opposite direction and in the wrong point on the runway.

So indeed, off goes AP, I keep altitude and decide to fly the approach manually. Managed to do this in a somewhat hamfisted way(I was too low, turned final too early etc) but... decided to try ILS anyway and the AP then did capture the glideslope and brought me in almost smack on the runway (almost).

And then I looked again, and something must have happened with the flight plan. I already know that MSFS will change your assigned departure runway without informing you when you use their ATC on departure, so if you don't pay attention, you end up e.g. departing in the wrong direction etc. But it works somehow because your AP will get you back to your route (never mind real world SID and other procedures). But last night, the flight plan in the plane's FD had put the landing 32L runway right after waypoint ITE, and had pushed the whole south track that was supposed to get me to the runway/ILS in the right direction, to after landing. This was done by MSFS, because when I checked the LNM flightplan again this morning, it was absolutely correct. I guess my reaction is "ah well let's see whether Asobo ever get's around to fixing MSFS' garbage ATC and flight planning mechanics..., in the meantime we'll make do and re-check the flight plan when we get into the plane"... (and stop listening to ATC for the approach cuz that's a mess anyway).

On the upside: I now know how to check the flight plan imported into the FD, now I need to figure out how to correct it...

And: yes indeed, who on earth designed the handling of the touch screen and the display of the NAV radios in this plane? Once you know it's fine but absolutely this would never pass certification...

Thanks again all for the comments, I'll try the Black Square.

Bruce: compliments on your signature quote: one of my all-time favourites.

Edited February 4, 20233 yr by Gumbodadfs

Ah and yes one more: whilst trying to fly the southern STAR approach, I initially wanted the AP to hold ALT, so switched off NAV and APR. The AP would have none of it and kept trying to turn me back to the GPS track. I had to turn it off completely and literally click the NAV and APR buttons several times to get it to just stick to ALT.

This may be a problem with the interface between my controller (Honeycomb throttle quadrant) and the MSFS on-screen AP buttons: none of the buttons of the AP in the plane ever lights up, whether I click it on-screen, or via the buttons on the controller, for example (on the controller they do just fine). Yet another great way to fly when you can only guess from the glass cockpit screens what mode your AP is in, as the buttons don't show anything...

Ah and did I mention I do all this in VR (which is itself an exercise is muscle memory 🙂 ).

Edited February 4, 20233 yr by Gumbodadfs

I'm wondering if this is a G3X-specific problem, as I've had similar experiences with the X-Cub.  The interface does indeed seem quite arcane, compared to say, the GTN.  However I've found  a number of airfields have 'dodgy' ILS implementations anyway, and the clue seems to be that the frequencies can't be accessed from the info page of the better GPSs.  Usually I can get automatic ILS/GS capture from a GPS-driven transition, but sometime it just won't work.  On those occasions I usually have to look up the ILS freq externally anyway(Littlenavmap or Plan-G) as it's not visible in the sim.