October 9, 200619 yr Bob,You are absolutely correct - actually this "perfect" accuracy during enroute phase bothered some scientists enough that one of them (my friend) working at NASA Ames wrote a scientific paper on the subject proposing so called "continuous altitude rule" - a rule that would set altitude based on your heading/course. You can read an abstract and the whole article here:http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/av/show_m...102feedback.htmI also like the idea of the random cross-track error.Michael J.NASA Ames Michael J.
October 9, 200619 yr >>Equipped with GPS navigation, these two jets approached from>opposite directions on the same track and collided. >Regardless of any other pilot or ATC controller error, a>radio, or transponder, or TCAS, or other system failure, one>truth seems apparent to me: these two jets struck head on, in>part, because their navigation systems put them perfectly into>the same traffic lane, reducing their only hope for separation>to the vertical plane.>If I choose, my GPS driven auto-pilot will fly up to a mile from the centerline of an airway, etc. Otherwise, it might be within three feet or so. This feature was designed for conjested airways, although we'd normally figure altitude seperation for opposite directions.L.Adamson
October 10, 200619 yr >If I choose, my GPS driven auto-pilot will fly up to a mile>from the centerline of an airway, etc. Otherwise, it might be>within three feet or so. This feature was designed for>conjested airways, although we'd normally figure altitude>seperation for opposite directions.True, most (maybe all) GPS nav systems will do that, but in every jet I've flown it's been a real pain to setup and use, because the offset must be set for each leg manually. Works OK on the NATS with 45 min between waypoints, but not so well in busy airspace over land.The random offset function I would like to see would be automatic at all altitudes above the OROCA, and would set aircraft to fly a parallel course offset to right of track by a random cross-track distance of between 200-3000m to the right of track centerline. Airways are already designed to allow 4nm deviation left/right of track based on allowable error from much less accurate conventional terrestrial radio navaids.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile Bob Scott | President and CEO, AVSIM Inc ATP Gulfstream II-III-IV-V Sys1 (MSFS20+24/XPlane12+11): AMD 9800X3D, water 2x240mm, MSI MPG X670E Carbon, 64GB GSkill 6000/30, nVidia RTX4090FE Alienware AW3821DW 38" 21:9 GSync, 2x4TB Crucial T705 PCIe5 + 2x2TB Samsung 990 SSD, EVGA 1000P2 PSU, 12.9" iPad Pro Thrustmaster TCA Boeing Yoke, TCA Airbus Sidestick, Twin TCA Airbus Throttle quads, PFC Cirrus Pedals, Coolermaster HAF932 case Sys2 (P3Dv5/v4): i9-13900KS, water 2x360mm, ASUS Z790 Hero, 32GB GSkill 7800MHz CAS36, ASUS RTX4090 Samsung 55" JS8500 4K TV@60Hz, 3x 2TB WD SN850X 1x 4TB Crucial P3 M.2 NVME SSD, EVGA 1600T2 PSU Fiber link to Yamaha RX-V467 Home Theater Receiver, Polk/Klipsch 6" bookshelf speakers, Polk 12" subwoofer, 12.9" iPad Pro PFC yoke/throttle quad/pedals with custom Hall sensor retrofit, Thermaltake View 71 case, Stream Deck XL button box Sys3 (DCS/P3Dv4/ATS/ETS): AMD 7800X3D, MSI MPG X870E Carbon, Noctua NH-D15S, 64GB GSkill 6000/30, EVGA RTX3090 Alienware AW3420DW 34" 21:9 GSync, Corsair HX1000i PSU, 4TB Crucial T705 PCIe5 + 2TB Samsung 970Evo Plus, TM TCA Officer Pack, Saitek combat pedals, TM Warthog, TM RS300 FF wheel/pedals, Coolermaster HAF XB case
October 11, 200619 yr Author Scott,From what you have set out there appears to have been abreakdown in some basic ATC procedures.Assuming the Brazillian ATC system is using ICAO procedures the both the Brazilia and Amazonica procedural controllers maintaining the 'Board' and doing the coordination for the radar controller, should have had a 'strip' on each aircraft under the boundary designator on their respective control positions. Also the strips would have been of a different colour or had some other distinguishing feature. Each strip should show clearly the current assigned level.It is also normal for coordination to take place between the two centres/controllers at least 10 minutes before the boundary position. So the Amazonica controller should have had a TERES position report and ETA for NABOL including the current assigned level of 370 for the GOL B738. A controllers normal action would be to check the times and level against any other strip under the boundary designator for a posible confliction. Similarly the Brazilia controller would have been given the TERES position eata NABOL for the Legacy jet. So at least one of the controllers should have picked up the conflict at the time of the position coordination. Also the radar controllers (if radar coverage existed) should be checking the mode C readout on the target labels. A possible scenario. Did the Amazonica controller advise the Brazilia controller during the coordination that he was going to assign the Legacy jet FL360 before the boundary and so the Brazilia controller wrote 360 on his strip for the Legacy jet??? And subsequently for whatever reason the Anazonica controller did not issue the level change instruction to the Legacy jet. But again even if the Brazilia controller had accepted the coordination, he would have told his radar controller that the Legacy jet has been assigned FL360. As soon as he had both aircraft on his display the first thing he should have checked was the mode C levels. If they were the same, do something about it. If there was no radar coverage in that area then there is no fall back, and as both aircraft would appear to have reached the NABOL at about the same time they would have been on different frequencies and the only safety net left was TCAS and or the Mark one eyeball which is not very reliable at these heights and speeds. All the little holes lined up!The ATC tapes, cockpit voice recorders and flight data recorders hopefully will eventually provide the answers to this unfortunate incident.NeilYPAD (retired ATC) http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpgNeil Bradley
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