Unpopular(?) Opinion

[UrgentSiesta 936]

54 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

You're gonna have to "chew the fat" with krakin on all that. I simply wanted clarification on their original post claiming we would all be in awe of what was coming in the aero modeling. So, thermal buoyancy. Noted.

 

Bashing? You mean asking questions about upcoming modeling techniques and pointing out flaws in arguments targeting XP on an XP forum in an XP thread? I can't help you with that south-end-of-a-north-bound-horse conclusion.

I'm going to stop responding to your willful mischaracterizations. Good Day, sir.

[mSparks 2,088]

48 minutes ago, brinx said:

Why? I thought you didn't use MSFS.

Because I like flight sim fun time and it would be nice if they put the effort into flight sim rather than hoping it will prop up a failing OS and second rate games console.

I dont use MSFS because its not available for any of the hardware I own or want to own, and it certainly isnt good enough to buy new hardware for.

Aces of Thunder is a different story. That is going to make an already very enticing platform a must have next year, its going to be a very very tight race between apple vision and PSVR2 (I suspect apple will win for me, but all contingent on delivering on the promise - and we all know how that can turn out.)

although...

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by mSparks

[BobFS88 648]

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I believe they'd all be far better, and far more popular, if the framework was in the base sim, with some templated missions/campaigns for noobs to get excited about.

I am quite sure if they have the time and resources from such highly skilled programmers to do such a thing, that can put together something like what they are doing for the A330 to show X Plane straights that demonstrate their hard work. However that was what they left for moder's and 3PD to take it to the next level.

That's how we have the zibo mod instead if users pay a tax for the privilege to flying a 737 800 with all its capabilities to PMDG.

That how we have the avitab in most if all of the aircraft that can use it.

That how we have the the best push back software that everyone else tries to memic.  

That's how we have 3PD able to deliver weather addons that will produce historical weather.

X Plane may seem like it doesn't do a lot of exciting things to make people say oooohhh and aaaaallll, they do what is necessary to make things possible in the timely manner so that we don't have to wait until next year for of what was listed to come in FS2024 to fruition.

[BobFS88 648]

2 hours ago, brinx said:

The time to have done it would be at the expo when everyone is paying attention, not after everyone has gone. I saw FSElite had them scheduled for an interview, but nothing so far. I'm on the lookout to see if it still happens.

Janvo was at the FSExpo and this take on the presentation I would agree with:

"As for a presentation missing this year - I guess there isn´t anything "big" to announce right now. X-Plane is in that post-release phase of every major version where there is a lot of tedious and diligent bug fixing and polishing to be done and a presentation´s message would be simply that Laminar is busy "improving multiple aspects of X-Plane right now". I think sometimes holding a presentation for the sake of holding a presentation would be a poor decision."

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/290334-fsexpo-in-houston/&do=findComment&comment=2572077 

As far as I am concern, Austin who was not there had gave his presentation in the interview with Xplane.org IMO.

But I will be looking for that interview from FSEite. 

[UrgentSiesta 936]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

Aces of Thunder is a different story. That is going to make an already very enticing platform a must have next year, its going to be a very very tight race between apple vision and PSVR2 (I suspect apple will win for me, but all contingent on delivering on the promise - and we all know how that can turn out.)

 

PS doesn't even have a flight simulator. And after Aces of Thunder releases, it still won't have a flight simulator.

If you want realism in that genre, you need to turn to IL2 or DCSW.

Apple? Other than X-Plane, what choice do we have?

If flight sim is your thing, X-Plane gives you OS options, but Windows is where the simmers are. If Windows were a "failing OS", Austin wouldn't write for it. And the other sim devs would diversify just as LR has done.

But that's not the case out here in the real world, is it?

[UrgentSiesta 936]

39 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

I am quite sure if they have the time and resources from such highly skilled programmers to do such a thing, that can put together something like what they are doing for the A330 to show X Plane straights that demonstrate their hard work. However that was what they left for moder's and 3PD to take it to the next level.

That's how we have the zibo mod instead if users pay a tax for the privilege to flying a 737 800 with all its capabilities to PMDG.

That how we have the avitab in most if all of the aircraft that can use it.

That how we have the the best push back software that everyone else tries to memic.  

That's how we have 3PD able to deliver weather addons that will produce historical weather.

X Plane may seem like it doesn't do a lot of exciting things to make people say oooohhh and aaaaallll, they do what is necessary to make things possible in the timely manner so that we don't have to wait until next year for of what was listed to come in FS2024 to fruition.

I think LR did a GREAT job on the 330. So much so that I have no interest in paying for one in either sim.

Payware is not a "tax". X-Plane itself is payware, no? There's a reason...

X-Plane has a lot of great features, and a talented group of freeware devs. And so does "the other" sim.

For e.g., some of those former freeware devs are now part of the core sims dev team. Why not do the same thing in X-Plane for what appears to be a VERY popular feature?

X-Plane is coming up on 30 years in production (KUDOS!!). MSFS has been out for less than 3. I'm not surprised that X-Plane is more advanced in many ways.

Edited June 26, 2023 by UrgentSiesta

[BobFS88 648]

15 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Payware is not a "tax". X-Plane itself is payware, no? There's a reason...

You're missing my point.

PMDG still selling that aircraft design that been in existence for well over 10 years over multiple ESP platforms and now MSFS. They have not added anything different other than the promise of bringing a efb and AOC and CPDLC which still have not done but command a $70 for each variant. Any hint of any major change to the sim has some people nervous that there will a charge (not that I know they will) for additions or upgrades.  That does not happening on the Zebo mod for X plane platform which is to most use aircraft in the sim. 

You don't have to pay separate for use of Zibo mod anymore than you don't have to pay separate for the use of the A330. What you pay for the sim is immaterial because it applies to both sim. The difference is that Microsoft will have to stones to upset PMDG or Aerosoft for matter to put aircraft that would compete directly with the PMDG NG's or Aerosoft A330 for free.   

[UrgentSiesta 936]

33 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

You're missing my point.

PMDG still selling that aircraft design that been in existence for well over 10 years over multiple ESP platforms and now MSFS. They have not added anything different other than the promise of bringing a efb and AOC and CPDLC which still have not done but command a $70 for each variant. Any hint of any major change to the sim has some people nervous that there will a charge (not that I know they will) for additions or upgrades.  That does not happening on the Zebo mod for X plane platform which is to most use aircraft in the sim. 

You don't have to pay separate for use of Zibo mod anymore than you don't have to pay separate for the use of the A330. What you pay for the sim is immaterial because it applies to both sim. The difference is that Microsoft will have to stones to upset PMDG or Aerosoft for matter to put aircraft that would compete directly with the PMDG NG's or Aerosoft A330 for free.   

I don't think I'm missing it - we're just disagreeing in good faith. 🙂

You simply can't compare payware to freeware. Sometimes people step up to the plate and hit a home run for us at no cost (Zibo), and some times they don't (no freeware XP Airbus until v12). Other people will gladly step in and sell a solution that nobody's willing to do for free (e.g., the FJS 737/727). 

Similar to the Airbus e.g., I could flip it around and ask why nobody ever did for X-Plane what Working Title did for MSFS? It's needed just as much here as there, after all. Sometimes it works out, and some times it doesn't...

My relatively limited experience as a PMDG customer only goes back about 4 years, and so far, they've done entirely right by me.

And as a long time IT pro, I know for a fact it doesn't make ANY difference that the various platform releases look/act "the same" to you and me, the end users. The switch from 32bit to 64bit took a lot of work. And though P3D has been thru multiple versions since I bought the NGXu, I still haven't been charged again for my multiple PMDG aircraft for P3D.

And despite PMDG's "greedy" reputation, they gave me a FREE 737 in MSFS after I bought one for P3D. And their pricing in MSFS has proven to be very consumer friendly (who else was selling a High Fidelity modern airliner for $35 before they started doing it? NOBODY - that's who).

So while it's entirely appropriate to show gratitude to and appreciate all the selfless work the Zibo team has done for us, it's also INappropriate to throw shade at PMDG, et al, for wanting to get paid for all the work they do (just like you and me).

And for the same exact reason, I don't care if they charged for the MSFS version - it took a complete re-build of the P3D version (as it did with all the "ports" from the other High Fidelity devs). And IIRC, PMDG was one of the very first to release a "Study Level" airliner in MSFS, so their productivity is good, too.

And when the time comes for their 747 to release in MSFS, I'll gladly pay "again", even though I already paid for it in P3D.

[mSparks 2,088]

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I'm not surprised that X-Plane is more advanced in many ways.

 

 

[BobFS88 648]

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Similar to the Airbus e.g., I could flip it around and ask why nobody ever did for X-Plane what Working Title did for MSFS?

The because airbus for all purposes MCDU was not done to level where one feel they can take the entire aircraft to the next level. I think things are getting close when maybe someone will be able take that change. But I would expect them the start such a project on day 1.

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

My relatively limited experience as a PMDG customer only goes back about 4 years,

My experience dealing with them goes back  8 years back to when I left FSX and I seen them in action when they brought their DC6 to X Plane 10 only to abandon that project shortly before the release X Plane 11. Then at the one of conferences  they announce this secrets project that they claim have been working on for over 10 calling it GFO that support the usual platforms and a passing remark "that it also support X Plane too". That didn't go over to well in the community. Later claim there was some effort to actually bring a 737 NG aircraft to Xplane but later they sent a letter stating that they were not going to continue but instead reevaluate the market. At that point the Zibo mod had grown to viable alternate that PMDG.

But they thought they were going to have an easier time after the FS2020 announcement. But as it turn out it was much worse on the MSFS side while they still trying to deliver the Efb and as far as I know GFO is still not you running. 

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

So while it's entirely appropriate to show gratitude to and appreciate all the selfless work the Zibo team has done for us, it's also INappropriate to throw shade at PMDG, et al, for wanting to get paid for all the work they do (just like you and me).

Well pardon me if I sound a little sour on them because I don't believe in rewarding developers who abandons their costumer's after the DC6 on X plane 10 and not bringing their 737 to X plane 11 when they had the opportunity especially if they're greedy" only because it's their way they doing business, So my circumstance as a formal customer of  PMDG is a little different than yours.

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

And for the same exact reason, I don't care if they charged for the MSFS version - it took a complete re-build of the P3D version (as it did with all the "ports" from the other High Fidelity devs). And IIRC, PMDG was one of the very first to release a "Study Level" airliner in MSFS, so their productivity is good, too.

Had they stuck with their plans to finish the X Plane version first, we would have had it 2 to 3 years sooner. But everything stopped after that 1 and min video and took them longer than expect before they were able to get to their first release, still unfinished, no GFO but I'm glad you found it was worth the wait.  

  

[BobFS88 648]

5 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

The difference is that Microsoft will have to stones to upset PMDG

Correction: The difference is that Microsoft would not have the stones to upset PMDG......

 

[JBDB-MD80 1,478]

53 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

Correction: The difference is that Microsoft would not have the stones to upset PMDG......

 

I'm not sure about this but respect your opinion though.

[BobFS88 648]

1 hour ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

I'm not sure about this but respect your opinion though.

I was just trying correct a comment I made since the edit had scrolled off where I was unable to correct it with end the conversation. 

[mSparks 2,088]

14 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

And after Aces of Thunder releases, it still won't have a flight simulator.

Aces of thunder is a hugely popular game (war thunder) adding flight simulator components, including the 100% most important (properly working VR).

MSFS2024 is a flight simulator adding game components that XPlane pretty much proved aren't that fun 10 years ago, and may not even have VR....

Neither will hold a candle to XPlane when it comes to generically simulating any aircraft that ever or could exist, but there is a lot more to flight sim than having a 744 with a working hydraulics EICAS page.

14 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

If you want realism in that genre, you need to turn to IL2 or DCSW.

TBH, creating a popular loved game is harder than making a decent flight sim, although the challenges are different.

For flight sim the challenge is there is only ever a limited market, so creating a sustainable flight sim means finding a regular revenue from a very limited number of people.

For games (in the last 5-10 years), you have RDR2 & CP2077, CSGO, War Thunder, GTAV, DOTA, Battlefield & CoD (only some of the series) and a few others (e.g. WoT, Gran Toursimo) that have succeeded out of more games than there are users of MSFS, XP, IL2 and DCS combined.

14 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Why not do the same thing in X-Plane for what appears to be a VERY popular feature?

Well, the discussion around that starts getting into financial issues like why Activision is willing to sell itself to Microsoft and what happens next.... that's a conversation for another day when the dust settles.

 

[UrgentSiesta 936]

5 hours ago, mSparks said:

Aces of thunder is a hugely popular game (war thunder) adding flight simulator components, including the 100% most important (properly working VR).

MSFS2024 is a flight simulator adding game components that XPlane pretty much proved aren't that fun 10 years ago, and may not even have VR....

Neither will hold a candle to XPlane when it comes to generically simulating any aircraft that ever or could exist, but there is a lot more to flight sim than having a 744 with a working hydraulics EICAS page.

So now you're arguing that as long as the game has VR, wings and a clickable cockpit, it can pretend to be a flight sim?

That's rich, baby! I think i'm just gonna copy paste this into every single disparaging comment you ever make about ANY other flight sim.

 

Quote

MSFS2024 is a flight simulator adding game components that XPlane pretty much proved aren't that fun 10 years ago

The VAST majority of flight simmers don't think your eggbeater helos are fun, either. 

Why not do the same thing in X-Plane for what appears to be a VERY popular feature?

Quote

Well, the discussion around that starts getting into financial issues like why Activision is willing to sell itself to Microsoft and what happens next.... that's a conversation for another day when the dust settles.

Yet another Red Herring. No, no it doesn't have anything to do with "financial issues". It has to do, as you have so sagely advised, with giving end users what they want.

Edited June 27, 2023 by UrgentSiesta