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[GoranM 3,778]

Just now, The Seawolf said:

You don't need to quote every single sentence in the forum @GoranM as if every word needs your approval 😉

Consider it personally addressing specific points for the sake of courtesy and clarity.

[The Seawolf 18]

This isn't about courtesy.

I said what I had to say and you will never let it stand. And I know you know exactly what this is about now: you are going to argue and quote every single word until one of us collapses from exhaustion, and it is going to be me because you never give up.

Let's just agree to disagree instead.

[GoranM 3,778]

1 minute ago, The Seawolf said:

This isn't about courtesy.

I do this to everyone.  Every forum.  Including our official support forums.  Every discord group.  Every youtube comment.  It is absolutely about courtesy.  I want to address every point, specifically.  

9 minutes ago, The Seawolf said:

I said what I had to say and you will never let it stand.

I'll concede if I agree.  After taking everything into account.  The difference is, I'm looking at all this through a dev pov.  You're looking at it through a customer pov.  So opinions will obviously differ.

10 minutes ago, The Seawolf said:

And I know you know exactly what this is about now

Not really.  I'm seeing 2 differing opinions.  There's nothing ulterior about this.

11 minutes ago, The Seawolf said:

you are going to argue and quote every single word until one of us collapses from exhaustion

Not my intention.

11 minutes ago, The Seawolf said:

Let's just agree to disagree instead.

No problem.  That's how most opinions end up.

[The Seawolf 18]

Apparently sometimes less is more ..

[mjrhealth 824]

Well now we know why developers hate forums. The fact we have a few developers willing to share, there are not many, some would thing users would be a little more respectful, but I have lost my respect for many "users" usually badly informed., Opinions are one thing, ranting is another. Think this will get closed soon again.

[GoranM 3,778]

15 minutes ago, The Seawolf said:

Apparently sometimes less is more ..

Sometimes. 

[The Seawolf 18]

Great, we can finally agree that Laminar is now officially saying that the cockpits could be a bit too dark.

But they found out by themselves not from complaints of badly informed users.

Let's see what 12.3 brings then

 

 

[DD_Arthur 1,091]

...and so the XP forum can go back to sleep, safe in the knowledge that the naysayers and their awful opinions have been vanquished once again...

 

[Biology 1,347]

59 minutes ago, The Seawolf said:

Great, we can finally agree that Laminar is now officially saying that the cockpits could be a bit too dark.

But they found out by themselves not from complaints of badly informed users.

Let's see what 12.3 brings then

 

 

Hi,

I would like to add that LR has not found it solely by themselves but by listening to the feedback from their users. In other words, user feedback has always been listened to and taken seriously. LR has been aware of the issue since the beginning and never denied its existence, I don't know where some people heard the "cockpits are still not dark enough" comment but it certainly is not from LR.

For context, you probably know me from the original dark cockpits thread and how I vehemently argued with the people who didn't believe there was an issue. This was before I was hired by LR as a graphics programmer. And one of the main things I was "tasked" with right after my hiring is the dark cockpits issue. So this issue is certainly being taken seriously and prioritized.

However the issue is multifaceted and hence it's not straightforward at all. In short, there are 3 parts that play a role together:

1. Sky brightness being inaccurate - especially the day sky is too bright and this is causing a harsher contrast between highlights and shadows, this will be solved by calibrating the sky into real world sky models such as CIE Standard Skies.

2. The ambient lighting / cubemap being overly sensitive to the differences in cockpit geometry and cockpit albedo - unfortunately not all cockpits in real life are light colored and it is apparent that the cubemap doesn't do a great job estimating the ambient lighting for cockpits with darker albedos.

3. Autoexposure, tonemapping and other post processing aspects needing refinement - the human visual system is really complex so modelling the physics of lighting is only half of the story, taking perceptual facets into account is equally as important as getting the physics right. You can get the physics right as much as you want but if it's perceptually wrong it's still wrong. The goal is tuning autoexposure, tonemapping etc. to resemble human vision as much as possible.

And this is kind of why it is unfortunately taking so long - all of these aspects are interdependent and they need to be addressed all at once. Otherwise it will be a chasing game between developers and LR as the lighting model gets changed again and again. The goal is to measure twice and cut once, and hopefully fix the dark cockpit issue once and for all, as a part of this big lighting recalibration.

But long story short, the user feedback is without a doubt taken seriously in LR.

Edited February 19 by Biology

[mSparks 2,094]

52 minutes ago, Biology said:

"cockpits are still not dark enough"

I think I do, it comes from ppl not reading posts properly while trying to quantify the issue.

Namely, if you take what a typical display can recreate from the lighting in a real cockpit, XP is already significantly brighter than that.

e.g. this shot:

XP doesn't do that dark

So from a purely

2 hours ago, GoranM said:

Undermine?  Do you know how many times commercial devs get told something is "wrong" in their add ons, with no supporting evidence?  Someone told me the winglets of the 650 were wrong.  I asked them "How are they wrong?  Which part?".  Response?  "I don't know.  They just look wrong."

perspective, the cockpits are already to bright.

That doesn't mean anyone was saying they should be made darker, just trying to explain that pushing them to be brighter is already an artistic choice that has been made over what is "realistic". (i suppose it can be implied by joining "need evidence" and "evidence shows they are to bright", but no one has said, or afaik thinks they are to bright)

That doesn't leave any good choices to make the situation better.

There's some 29 pages of this discussion here

lets not go over it again, my #1 take away is if an aircraft is experiencing a dark cockpit now, it will need its albedo and probably sunvisor fixing to not experience a dark cockpit in the future.

Oh, and also, that 2D LDR sucks, and 3D/VR needs eye tracking even with an HDR display.

Edited February 19 by mSparks

[Greazer 1,345]

Cockpits are too dark. This has always been an issue, even though every new X Plane has a new lighting model! There are forum posts everywhere on this issue.  Numerous YouTube videos on lighting hacks.  But there is no official fix by LR Devs. Honestly the time for this is getting pretty crazy by now, and considering the other Sim is on the 15th Sim update and those include hundreds of updates / fixes.

[blingthinger 649]

16 minutes ago, Greazer said:

hundreds of updates / fixes

Oh goood!!!

And how embarrassing that it has taken them so long and they still seem to need hundreds more in so many areas, with orders of magnitude more devs on payroll :)

 

14 minutes ago, Greazer said:

Cockpits are too dark

Are you sure?? I personally don't think so. I personally don't mind it at all in VR.

[brinx 276]

2 hours ago, Biology said:

I would like to add that LR has not found it solely by themselves but by listening to the feedback from their users.

You were one of the users pointing out the issue and providing some technical insights into what you thought was happening.

When many of us pointed out the issue, we were somewhat ridiculed as is usually the case with anything perceived as negative in this forum. I even had to post a video with Austin admitting the lighting was an issue as proof it was something Laminar was aware of.

In any case, good that there are plans to address now.

Edited February 19 by brinx

[GoranM 3,778]

53 minutes ago, brinx said:

You were one of the users pointing out the issue and providing some technical insights into what you thought was happening.

When many of us pointed out the issue, we were somewhat ridiculed as is usually the case with any perceived as negative in this forum. I even had to post a video with Austin admitting the lighting was an issue as proof it was something Laminar was aware of.

In any case, good that there are plans to address now.

He’s qualified. With verifiable qualifications. The regular flight simmer…isn’t. 

I don't recall anyone getting "ridiculed".  That's quite an accusation.

Edited February 19 by GoranM

[Brian Mackie 123]

What a pointless thread this has become.