PMDG 737 flight model question

[Mike_CFII_MEL 791]

20 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

What do you mean, when conditions are right?  In what conditions are you seeing the PMDG do this, that you think the real airplane wouldn't?

Like I say, a mishandled balloon or bounce is one of the leading causes of a tail strike.  I mean, I've had to take the controls from an FO and go around - from idle thrust - because of a severe balloon.  In the actual airplane.

I don't understand why folks who have only flown the sim variety think that this can't happen??  You can be on-speed at ref +10 or 15 (for wind additive) and balloon for sure...

What do you mean, when conditions are right? - Stable approach speed right on the money, unlike when you had to take over because the conditions weren't correct for landing. That's what I mean.

Next time I'm in the multi million dollar sim, I going to make it point to look at this specific item.  I know it won't climb like the PMDG does in MS2020!

Edited February 28 by Mike_CFII_MEL

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

3 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

What do you mean, when conditions are right? - Stable approach speed right on the money, unlike when you had to take over because the conditions weren't correct for landing. That's what I mean.

Next time I'm in the multi million dollar sim, I going to make it point to look at this specific item.  I know it won't climb like the PMDG does in MS2020!

The FO WAS on speed for conditions when he ballooned in my example.  

I hate to burst your bubble, but level D sims don't really fly like the airplane either.  They're very good for procedural training, and they're ballpark enough for flight modeling so a trainee can get an idea of pitch/power/control deflection/control force relationships, but in the end, nothing really flies like an airplane except an airplane.  There's a reason a newly typed pilot isn't just turned loose to go fly the airplane, but completes roughly 60 hours of training in the actual plane with a check airman.  This is called OE (operating experience), and is where pilots really learn how to land.

[Mike_CFII_MEL 791]

4 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

The FO WAS on speed for conditions when he ballooned in my example.  

I hate to burst your bubble, but level D sims don't really fly like the airplane either.  They're very good for procedural training, and they're ballpark enough for flight modeling so a trainee can get an idea of pitch/power/control deflection/control force relationships, but in the end, nothing really flies like an airplane except an airplane.  There's a reason a newly typed pilot isn't just turned loose to go fly the airplane, but completes roughly 60 hours of training in the actual plane with a check airman.  This is called OE (operating experience), and is where pilots really learn how to land.

That's fine. We are talking simulator to simulator so if the PMDG actually climbs then so should the level-d sim. I'll see next go around.

[sd_flyer 6,087]

7 hours ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

As timing would have it, here we a have a few level D sim landings. 
 

 

 

 

 

I believe if one also looks at the FCOM you'll find that it states the aircraft may float but makes no mention of climb out.

Off topic question: 4th landing in level D video. What is up with centerline ?

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

That doesn't necessarily make sense, as one sim isn't modeled off another sim.  They're both trying to represent the actual airplane.  Sure in an ideal world all 3 things would be identical, but that's what I'm trying to explain - they aren't.  Both sim renditions are going to have their quirks.

Note that variant also matters... A -700 is going to respond differently in the flare than a -900.  

[Mike_CFII_MEL 791]

Just now, Stearmandriver said:

That doesn't necessarily make sense, as one sim isn't modeled off another sim.  They're both trying to represent the actual airplane.  Sure in an ideal world all 3 things would be identical, but that's what I'm trying to explain - they aren't.  Both sim renditions are going to have their quirks.

Note that variant also matters... A -700 is going to respond differently in the flare than a -900.  

Yet the zibo mod doesn't seem to suffer from this quirk during flare. But then again I really wasn't paying attention to this particular issue in the level-D setup, maybe it will do the same thing. I'll see next go around.

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

4 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

Off topic question: 4th landing in level D video. What is up with centerline ?

Well, it's over there.

What caught my eye was all the stick pumping and left/right oscillations.  The left/right stuff is a PIO; when you deflect the yoke far enough you start to deflect spoilers which causes a sudden quicker roll moment, which the pilot then tries to correct by banging the yoke back the other way, etc.  I know you can find videos of people flying the plane like this on YouTube, and no one ever seems to point out that it's not great airmanship.  Both the fore/aft pumping and quick side to side deflections are destabilizing; making life harder than it really should be.  We would emphasize smoothing that out, ideally in the sim, but on OE.  It would be a debrief item on a line check.

Airplanes are designed to be easy to fly.  Airliners are the easiest of all.  No need to make life harder.  😉

[lwt1971 7,456]

1 hour ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Next time I'm in the multi million dollar sim, I going to make it point to look at this specific item.  I know it won't climb like the PMDG does in MS2020!

So what were the circumstances when you were flying in the PMDG 737 in MSFS where you saw this supposedly incorrect/quirky behaviour? Was the approach stable and no pilot error/mishandling where the PMDG still did this? Was the plane coming in with enough energy/momentum where when flaring it with idle thrust it still climbed (as would be expected)? Was there over-flaring? Like many others on here I've never seen this on the PMDG either, so would be good to get the exact set of conditions or repro steps that shows any incorrect behaviour.
 

Edited February 28 by lwt1971

[Mike_CFII_MEL 791]

43 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

So what were the circumstances when you were flying in the PMDG 737 in MSFS where you saw this supposedly incorrect/quirky behaviour? Was the approach stable and no pilot error/mishandling where the PMDG still did this? Was the plane coming in with enough energy/momentum where when flaring it with idle thrust it still climbed (as would be expected)? Was there over-flaring? Like many others on here I've never seen this on the PMDG either, so would be good to get the exact set of conditions or repro steps that shows any incorrect behaviour.
 

Why would I question anything outside a stable approach??? 

[lwt1971 7,456]

31 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Why would I question anything outside a stable approach??? 

You're the one who said above that "I know it won't climb like the PMDG does in MS2020!" .. so that suggests you have seen improper behaviour in the PMDG 737 in MSFS. I presume you actually own the PMDG 737 and MSFS and have seen this improper behaviour right? If so, are you are saying you were coming in on a stable approach and did nothing else that would've caused the PMDG to do what it did?
 

[Mike_CFII_MEL 791]

8 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

You're the one who said above that "I know it won't climb like the PMDG does in MS2020!" .. so that suggests you have seen improper behaviour in the PMDG 737 in MSFS. I presume you actually own the PMDG 737 and MSFS and have seen this improper behaviour right? If so, are you are saying you were coming in on a stable approach and did nothing else that would've caused the PMDG to do what it did?
 

"It won't climb like the PMDG does in MS2020" - refers to the Level-D sim, still left to be seen.

"so that suggests you have seen improper behaviour in the PMDG 737 in MSFS" - Yes and reported

"I presume you actually own the PMDG 737 and MSFS and have seen this improper behaviour right?" - You presume correctly 

"If so, are you are saying you were coming in on a stable approach and did nothing else that would've caused the PMDG to do what it did?" - Yes

[lwt1971 7,456]

11 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

"I presume you actually own the PMDG 737 and MSFS and have seen this improper behaviour right?" - You presume correctly 

 

"If so, are you are saying you were coming in on a stable approach and did nothing else that would've caused the PMDG to do what it did?" - Yes

Well, like I said, and as many others have said on here, haven't seen improper behaviour with the PMDG on stable approaches and then flaring (i.e. no over-flaring, not coming in with excess momentum, etc), so perhaps you or Greazer can enlighten us on the exact steps/conditions that reproduces this (which I presume was in your report to PMDG). Also, did PMDG respond back to your report?
 

[Mike_CFII_MEL 791]

13 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Well, like I said, and as many others have said on here, haven't seen improper behaviour with the PMDG on stable approaches and then flaring (i.e. no over-flaring, not coming in with excess momentum, etc), so perhaps you or Greazer can enlighten us on the exact steps/conditions that reproduces this (which I presume was in your report to PMDG). Also, did PMDG respond back to your report?
 

Well, not my best landings, but they are both the latest from both platforms.

I don't have any 2D panels to show you for MS2020 because it's not possible with Air Manager. Although I flare a bit early in MS2020, you'll see I have to baby her down to the ground. Maybe hard to see the speed tape, but it was no worse (I know neither landings were that great) than that of XP12.

MS2020 - Today we're in Revelstoke British Columbia, Canada
Jump to 27:00 minutes into the video

 

Now in X-Plane she continues down without me having to baby the yoke.
Jump to 1hr and 33 minutes into the video

 

Edited February 28 by Mike_CFII_MEL

[Mike_CFII_MEL 791]

10 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Also, did PMDG respond back to your report?

Only thing I received (as well as a few others for reporting issues) was backlash from PMDG forum community, after I that I didn't bother anymore.

Edited February 28 by Mike_CFII_MEL

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

2 hours ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Only thing I received (as well as a few others for reporting issues) was backlash from PMDG forum community, after I that I didn't bother anymore.

Note that there is difference over there between posting on the forum, and submitting a support ticket.  The forum is just a forum; not a support venue.

They do always respond to actual support tickets.  Not saying they'll always immediately fix the issue to your satisfaction of course, but they do respond.  They'll usually acknowledge a real issue, and/or offer some advice if they think you've got something wrong on your end.  Worth a try.