51 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Note that there is difference over there between posting on the forum, and submitting a support ticket.  The forum is just a forum; not a support venue.

They do always respond to actual support tickets.  Not saying they'll always immediately fix the issue to your satisfaction of course, but they do respond.  They'll usually acknowledge a real issue, and/or offer some advice if they think you've got something wrong on your end.  Worth a try.

Yeah I did both, while I was waiting for a response from PMDG I also asked in the forum. I would imagine it's not high on their priority list or it may have something to do with the limits of the base platform. I believe the type of answer I received was no one else is reporting this so it must be on my end. I know this answer doesn't help me with 2020, but my hardware works just fine using XP12 and the mod.

It's not like I'm using inexpensive hardware, I'm using real 737 yokes and rudder pedals with optical encoders and hall effect sensors. Maybe 2024 will be the answer.

Edited February 28, 20242 yr by Mike_CFII_MEL

In my opinion, an aircraft would only refuse to climb at idle thrust on the approach if it was right on stall speed. Presumably, that is not the situation when an airliner on a stabilised approach is about to flare for landing? That being the case, surely the excess energy would result in a short climb if the yoke is pulled back too far? The climb would not last for long without an increase in power, but wouldn't the increased angle of attack generate more lift up to a certain point?

22 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

In my opinion, an aircraft would only refuse to climb at idle thrust on the approach if it was right on stall speed. Presumably, that is not the situation when an airliner on a stabilised approach is about to flare for landing? That being the case, surely the excess energy would result in a short climb if the yoke is pulled back too far? The climb would not last for long without an increase in power, but wouldn't the increased angle of attack generate more lift up to a certain point?

I'll have to check it... Planned on it but after pushing SU15 Beta yesterday I started experiencing sim freezes, so, I was unable to test it so far...

Anyway, I belive in XP12 there's a problem with elevator authority that I believe Austin is going to address in one of the upcoming patches. It was found that the variation of CL with elevator deflection is quite inferior to test data using professional CFD software, and it always gave the impression of insufficient authority on some control surfaces, the elevator(s) being among these.

Probably as soon as Austin fixes it the Zibo will also be able to climb a bit under some flare scenarios, provided it has "sufficient energy" even at idle thrust...

Edited February 28, 20242 yr by jcomm

13 hours ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

I don't have any 2D panels to show you for MS2020 because it's not possible with Air Manager. Although I flare a bit early in MS2020, you'll see I have to baby her down to the ground. Maybe hard to see the speed tape, but it was no worse (I know neither landings were that great) than that of XP12.

I'm still suspecting this is ballooning actually being simulated by PMDG which you might be misinterpreting as a quirk or incorrect behaviour (and just because the Zibo doesn't do it doesn't mean that's the correct behaviour). The combination of vertical speed and momentum/excess-energy coming in (despite idle thrust), with when and how much flaring occurred, and other factors can still cause ballooning. In any case, I'll have to watch your videos more closely and see how I can exactly replicate on my simpleton non-full-cockpit hardware setup 🙂

Just for general reference for other folks, along with some related discussion I found on the PMDG forums:
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-to-recover-from-a-balloon-during-your-landing-flare/
https://community.infiniteflight.com/t/what-does-ballooning-mean/97517
https://www.australianflying.com.au/recreational/the-demon-behind-ballooning-and-floating
https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/pmdg-737-for-msfs/general-discussion-no-support/198126-flaps-30-40-ballooning-on-final (from 2022)
https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/pmdg-737-for-msfs/general-discussion-no-support/217290-b737-800-too-floaty-in-ground-effect (from 2022)
 

Edited February 28, 20242 yr by lwt1971

12 hours ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Now in X-Plane she continues down without me having to baby the yoke.

But you do have to baby the yoke. That's realistic behavior. You flare gently rising the nose by 2 to 3 degrees, retard thrust to idle at about 10 feet and from there on it's necessary to keep back pressure on the yoke to maintain or even increase pitch to maintain the descent rate to touchdown, because the nose wants to drop after thrust reduction. The PMDG 737 replicates exactly this, and it doesn't float if handled correctly - and it definitely doesn't climb if you're anywhere near correct technique and energy state. I have an exact full replica 737 yoke myself and there is significant back pressure required to fly the nose onto the runway. This is exactly real world procedure as per flight manual.

In your MSFS videos you were never even close to climbing at any point. I genuinely don't see any problem here. I also don't know why we are even assuming the Zibo is what PMDG should simulate. I have never flown the Zibo but if you don't have to baby the yoke and fly the nose onto the runway it's incorrect.

7 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

In my opinion, an aircraft would only refuse to climb at idle thrust on the approach if it was right on stall speed. Presumably, that is not the situation when an airliner on a stabilised approach is about to flare for landing? That being the case, surely the excess energy would result in a short climb if the yoke is pulled back too far? The climb would not last for long without an increase in power, but wouldn't the increased angle of attack generate more lift up to a certain point?

That depends 100% on the base platform and how the data interpreted. 

4 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

I'm still suspecting this is ballooning actually being simulated by PMDG which you might be misinterpreting as a quirk or incorrect behaviour (and just because the Zibo doesn't do it doesn't mean that's the correct behaviour). The combination of vertical speed and momentum/excess-energy coming in (despite idle thrust), with when and how much flaring occurred, and other factors can still cause ballooning. In any case, I'll have to watch your videos more closely and see how I can exactly replicate on my simpleton non-full-cockpit hardware setup 🙂

Just for general reference for other folks, along with some related discussion I found on the PMDG forums:
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-to-recover-from-a-balloon-during-your-landing-flare/
https://community.infiniteflight.com/t/what-does-ballooning-mean/97517
https://www.australianflying.com.au/recreational/the-demon-behind-ballooning-and-floating
https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/pmdg-737-for-msfs/general-discussion-no-support/198126-flaps-30-40-ballooning-on-final (from 2022)
https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/pmdg-737-for-msfs/general-discussion-no-support/217290-b737-800-too-floaty-in-ground-effect (from 2022)
 

It's not that the zibo mod doesn't do it, the Level-D sim hasn't done it as well. At least not where it is noticeable, but I will be looking at this next go around. I cannot bring a camera in to record the setup, but I may be able to record the glass screens and yoke.

2 hours ago, threexgreen said:

But you do have to baby the yoke. That's realistic behavior. You flare gently rising the nose by 2 to 3 degrees, retard thrust to idle at about 10 feet and from there on it's necessary to keep back pressure on the yoke to maintain or even increase pitch to maintain the descent rate to touchdown, because the nose wants to drop after thrust reduction. The PMDG 737 replicates exactly this, and it doesn't float if handled correctly - and it definitely doesn't climb if you're anywhere near correct technique and energy state. I have an exact full replica 737 yoke myself and there is significant back pressure required to fly the nose onto the runway. This is exactly real world procedure as per flight manual.

In your MSFS videos you were never even close to climbing at any point. I genuinely don't see any problem here. I also don't know why we are even assuming the Zibo is what PMDG should simulate. I have never flown the Zibo but if you don't have to baby the yoke and fly the nose onto the runway it's incorrect.

"But you do have to baby the yoke. That's realistic behavior. You flare gently rising the nose by 2 to 3 degrees, retard thrust to idle at about 10 feet and from there on it's necessary to keep back pressure on the yoke to maintain or even increase pitch to maintain the descent rate to touchdown, because the nose wants to drop after thrust reduction."

Exactly what happens in the Zibo mod, look at 50 feet on down. Pull back and it mostly left right on the yoke. If I didn't play with the MS2020 on flare I would have climbed. One can even see me push the yoke forward and the call outs in 2020?????  I'll purposely pull back the yoke and let her climb on my next run. 

But, like jcomm installing the latest update gives me a black screen on my server and my yoke and rudder pedals are a mess once again. 

Edited February 28, 20242 yr by Mike_CFII_MEL

13 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Exactly what happens in the Zibo mod, look at 50 feet on down. Pull back and it mostly left right on the yoke. If I didn't play with the MS2020 on flare I would have climbed. One can even see me push the yoke forward and the call outs in 2020?????  I'll purposely pull back the yoke and let her climb on my next run. 

 

Who care what you do with your yoke? It's up to your controls setup and sensitivity how much you have to move it. You pitch to your landing attitude and set power. I do just that and I don't have any "climbing when I pull yoke"

From you videos unless camera cockeyed you guys land off centerline and no one comment on that. Really? 

Anyone here use optical encoders and hall effect sensors for their hardware? Would be interested to see your yoke and rudder pedal settings along with sensitivity within 2020 as well as any FSUIPC7 settings. Since changes in these setting can make a big difference in the way the aircraft responds maybe the issue can be found there.

Don't have this issue with zibo since all flight controls are set to linear.

10 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

Who care what you do with your yoke? It's up to your controls setup and sensitivity how much you have to move it. You pitch to your landing attitude and set power. I do just that and I don't have any "climbing when I pull yoke"

From you videos unless camera cockeyed you guys land off centerline and no one comment on that. Really? 

It's not the yoke and rudder pedals, it's the response to the yoke! Why you seem to be getting bent out of shape, just trying to fix an issue here that may be related to settings.

I don't land nor ride the center line, don't like the thump, thump, thump of the wheels ridding over the centerline lighting.

1 hour ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Exactly what happens in the Zibo mod, look at 50 feet on down. Pull back and it mostly left right on the yoke. If I didn't play with the MS2020 on flare I would have climbed. One can even see me push the yoke forward and the call outs in 2020?????  I'll purposely pull back the yoke and let her climb on my next run.

You don't just pull the yoke back once and center it. You have to keep it backward and sometimes even pull back further just to maintain the descent rate. Pushing the yoke forward is never desirable and suggests mismanaged energy.

Landing with the Zibo your descent rate was way higher than in the PMDG video, where you came in much more shallow. That's two very different energy states and a pull on the yoke will have different effects. If you're as shallow as in the PMDG video you barely have to pull to flare and if you pull just a tad too much you'll float. I don't know if it's just the screens, but it also looks like you're very fast, hence high energy. Couple that with a shallow descent and it makes perfect sense you would have floated or even climbed with a harder pull, especially since you were still on thrust. Again, the situation is completely different in the Zibo video. The approach speed of 155 kts is very high as well, but given the high descent rate a decent pull was required just to achieve a normal touch down rate.

I'm not saying this to be confrontational, but I've flown the PMDG in MSFS more times than I can count (700, 800, 900 and 900ER), and I've never had an issue with floating or climbing, much less had to push on the yoke. Even with a high wind additive I can't remember coming close to ballooning, even though it's definitely possible in that energy state.

Edited February 28, 20242 yr by threexgreen
Clarification

You don't just pull the yoke back once and center it. You have to keep it backward and sometimes even pull back further just to maintain the descent rate. Pushing the yoke forward is never desirable and suggests mismanaged energy. EXACTLY, yet with the speed okay in 2020 it was still needed there is an issue here! 

 

Once I get this latest update from 2020 sorted out, I'll get the camera in the F/O seat and give a view with the glass screens so all the info is available. In the mean time I have to get back to my yoke and pedals.

15 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

Anyone here use optical encoders and hall effect sensors for their hardware? Would be interested to see your yoke and rudder pedal settings along with sensitivity within 2020 as well as any FSUIPC7 settings. Since changes in these setting can make a big difference in the way the aircraft responds maybe the issue can be found there.

Don't have this issue with zibo since all flight controls are set to linear.

I think this is close to the issue. Sensitivity is the go-to setting for flight simmers, but it's far from desirable. Flight controls are linear, not a curve like sensitivity. Flight controls won't deflect faster just because the yoke is further backward, they will deflect at the same rate, and the pitch will increase at the same rate throughout yoke movement.

I only use reactivity and extremity dead zone and stay away from sensitivity. My settings are 33 % extremity dead zone and 63 % reactivity. The only downside with this is that you will lose some travel distance when you decrease extremity dead zone, but you won't ever get anywhere near the dead zone in anything resembling normal flight, so it doesn't really matter. What yoke do you have?

3 minutes ago, Mike_CFII_MEL said:

EXACTLY, yet with the speed okay in 2020 it was still needed there is an issue here! 

There's something out of whack. But I don't think it's the sim or the PMDG because I've never had that experience, and others apparently don't either. I have the FCOM from the PMDG 737 in P3D when it still shipped with the addon, as well as a big 737 operator's flight manual which describes flare behavior and techniques in more detail. I find the PMDG does what the manual says about the real plane, and the described technique works too.