Best flight model after A2A ?

[F737MAX 5,738]

30 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Flight model? Meh.

For other JF aircraft maybe. However, you quoted someone who put forward the JF Tomahawk, which is supposedly their most accurate yet.

Sales bumpf:

Quote

FDE and effects
 

• Realistic and accurate flight dynamics based on real-world performance and handling data and input from real Tomahawk pilots
• Simulation of the Tomahawk’s renowned stall and spin characteristics

And here's a video of said stall, spin and recovery:

Haven’t seen reviews by real pilots, but will be interesting to hear their thoughts.

[Bobsk8 12,855]

2 hours ago, F737MAX said:

For other JF aircraft maybe. However, you quoted someone who put forward the JF Tomahawk, which is supposedly their most accurate yet.

Sales bumpf:

And here's a video of said stall, spin and recovery:

Haven’t seen reviews by real pilots, but will be interesting to hear their thoughts.

I had a chance to fly one in South Florida for just the fuel, the owner didn't have time to fly it, and didn't want it to sit unused. I told him, "No, not interested".. 

[Cpt_Piett 4,818]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:53 AM, sniper31 said:

What about the new JF PA-38 Tomahawk that was just released? It has very similar features to A2A's Comanche, to include a walk around inspection. I can't believe no one has mentioned it yet 😊

I think the flight model seems very convincing (have flown it quite a bit IRL). She’s very light at only 757kg MTOW, hence tends to be a bit twitchy in the pitch axis. With proper trimming though she’s completely stable in quiet air. 45 degree turns and you’ve done 360 degrees in no time. Just remember to use a bit of rudder to keep the turns coordinated.

The aircraft pretty much lands herself. Then there’s the most feared/exciting quirk, which is of course the spin of death. I’ve not done that IRL (lol) but it’s convincing enough (albeit quite terrifying) I would say. First time I tried it the aircraft changed spin direction three times and I lost 3000ft before I was able to recover…

All in all a fun little bird that I’ve flown a lot lately. Recommended if you don’t mind the slow pace, great for sightseeing / scenic flights. 

[UrgentSiesta 942]

6 hours ago, F737MAX said:

For other JF aircraft maybe. However, you quoted someone who put forward the JF Tomahawk, which is supposedly their most accurate yet.

aven’t seen reviews by real pilots, but will be interesting to hear their thoughts.

Having a relatively small amount of IRL GA stick time, and a handful of JF birds across P3D, XP and MSFS, I can confidently say that none of their flight models are as convincing as the handful of A2A birds I've been flying across P3D and now MSFS.

JF Turbo Arrow paired with Reality Enhancement Pack in X-Plane is definitely in the same league as A2A, flight model wise. Not having flown a Comanche myself (just some Piper Arrows), I can't tell.

But all things considered, I'll lean towards believing Scott Gentile. 😁

And it's certainly possible that JF have significantly leveled up with the Tomahawk.

But based on hands on experience with their previous work, I'm not at all persuaded unless I start seeing raving support for this particular addons flight model as being as good as A2A or REP.

Edited April 30 by UrgentSiesta
snipped

[s0cks 134]

12 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

I think BS Duke should feel the void of A2A quality aircraft with good useful load, range and two engines 🙂 

I know I'm being skeptical here, but I really think people are falling into the trap of seeing an A2A style engine animation on the tablet and thinking it's going to be like an A2A aircraft. I personally think, from looking at the documentation and videos, it would be better to say it's going to be like their previous aircraft but with a tablet, professional audio, and better piston startup simulation.

Don't get me wrong. I really like BlackSquare planes, and it will be great I'm sure, but it won't be A2A quality imho. I would love to be proved wrong tho!

Edited April 30 by s0cks

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

11 hours ago, F737MAX said:

For other JF aircraft maybe. However, you quoted someone who put forward the JF Tomahawk, which is supposedly their most accurate yet.

Sales bumpf:

And here's a video of said stall, spin and recovery:

Haven’t seen reviews by real pilots, but will be interesting to hear their thoughts.

Gotta say, that spin isn't very convincing.  It has the same tendency that spins in so many other MSFS aircraft do (to include some default aircraft) - it goes flat about one turn in before flopping back, and the yaw authority increases in an artificial way as the stall breaks (a Traumahawk doesn't have anywhere near that much rudder, and it would manifest more as roll than yaw at high alpha.). It also recovers almost immediately, even with incorrect anti-spin control input (he's using full opposite aileron, which would only serve to aggravate the existing spin; ailerons should be neutral).  In reality the entire problem with spins in the Tomahawk was that the plane did not want to recover.

I also did not see any forward yoke applied during spin recovery.  The only way to recover from a spin (which is a stalled condition) is to reduce the angle of attack below critical AoA; some airplanes will recover simply by releasing back pressure, but aircraft that are difficult to recover usually require an aggressive forward bunt.

In my experience, aircraft that enter a spin easily also recover promptly with correct inputs; and the opposite is true - an airplane that is difficult to spin is usually more difficult to recover.  

Edited April 30 by Stearmandriver

[SAS443 1,731]

1 hour ago, Stearmandriver said:

(he's using full opposite aileron, which would only serve to aggravate the existing spin; ailerons should be neutral). 

Wow.

I don't understand why they let those things slip by (unless it is intentional, but doesn't sound like it?).

Correct spin recovery for most planes are just a google search away.

I've done spins in the CAP10. Such an agile plane with a big rudder. 65degree turns felt like a normal turn, it just sliced its way through the banks like a tuna fish in water. Really an eye opening experience coming from the usual GA planes.

Edited April 30 by SAS443

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

CAPs are great!  Such capable airplanes; honest enough to be great aerobatic trainers, but capable enough to perform a fantastic airshow routine.  RIP Daniel and Montaine; legends not only as pilots but as teachers.

[F737MAX 5,738]

5 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Gotta say, that spin isn't very convincing.  It has the same tendency that spins in so many other MSFS aircraft do (to include some default aircraft)

Fair enough, thanks for your insight. I never took enough lessons to get to spins.

It appears that only by going outside of MSFS' aerodynamics engine can you have greater realism. At least A2A proved to devs that they can produce external FDs and still make it onto Marketplace and Xbox.

[sd_flyer 6,087]

17 hours ago, F737MAX said:

For other JF aircraft maybe. However, you quoted someone who put forward the JF Tomahawk, which is supposedly their most accurate yet.

Sales bumpf:

And here's a video of said stall, spin and recovery:

Haven’t seen reviews by real pilots, but will be interesting to hear their thoughts.

Wow that vid is a display of misconception and potentially dangerous technique if apply in sim to RL !

Aileron recovery is recommended from deep spiral not spin ! Traditionally spin recovery calls for power to idle, control neutral, then apply full opposite rudder (depending on spin rotation). When rotation stop, brisky push controls forward and after braking the stall, smooth but fast  recovery out of dive. The last phase is double edge sword. Pulling too fast can cause secondary stall and potentially spin. Pulling to slow abrupt loss of altitude and potential CFIT 

 

Applying aileron in fully developed spin is just aggravate it !

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

6 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

When rotation stop, brisky push controls forward and after braking the stall,

No need to wait until rotation stops to unload the wing; in fact, it's a bad idea.  In many airplanes, rotation will never stop until AoA is reduced and the stall is broken.  A spin is a stalled condition, so while all 4 recovery inputs have their value, the most important one (and the one that will usually get you out of the spin even if you forget the others) is to unload the wing and break the stall.

[sd_flyer 6,087]

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

No need to wait until rotation stops to unload the wing; 

I was not taught that. I did spins in Decathlon and Aerobat. Both instructors never told me to unload wing before rotation stops. Perhaps this is something from advanced aerobatic which I never did. I  My experience is limited by dual basic aerobatic in Decathlon, YAK-52 and T-6. I also never did recovery from flat or inverted spins (although was demoed by aerobatic CFI) 

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

1 hour ago, sd_flyer said:

I was not taught that. I did spins in Decathlon and Aerobat. Both instructors never told me to unload wing before rotation stops. Perhaps this is something from advanced aerobatic which I never did. I  My experience is limited by dual basic aerobatic in Decathlon, YAK-52 and T-6. I also never did recovery from flat or inverted spins (although was demoed by aerobatic CFI) 

I've never taught anyone to wait until rotation stops.  There's no reason too.  In more advanced aerobatics, what I'll teach is how to get a crisper entry, faster rotation, and crisper exit by accelerate-stalling into the maneuver, and then neutralizing the stick while holding pro-spin rudder. A super dec will not recover at neutral elevator, but you've unloaded the tail and the spin rotation rate almost doubles.  For a crisper exit then, you briefly pop the stick full aft again to slow rotation, and then punch it full forward while reversing rudder input. 

But that's just for a better looking maneuver.  For safety's sake, when you just want to recover from a spin, shove that stick forward as you apply anti-spin full rudder.  Think about it: aerodynamically, what would be the advantage of waiting?  Rotation *may* slow or stop with opposite rudder before the unload, or it may not depending on what airplane you're in, but you cannot recover without a stall recovery.  Conversely, even if you unload the wing without any rudder input whatsoever, you WILL always recover, it may just take longer. 

But the key part of the recovery, the vital part, the only part that HAS to happen, is you have to reduce AoA.  In a recovery from an unintentional spin, the sooner the better!  👍

[sd_flyer 6,087]

31 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

 

But that's just for a better looking maneuver.  For safety's sake, when you just want to recover from a spin, shove that stick forward as you apply anti-spin full rudder.  Think about it: aerodynamically, what would be the advantage of waiting?  Rotation *may* slow or stop with opposite rudder before the unload, or it may not depending on what airplane you're in, but you cannot recover without a stall recovery.  Conversely, even if you unload the wing without any rudder input whatsoever, you WILL always recover, it may just take longer. 

But the key part of the recovery, the vital part, the only part that HAS to happen, is you have to reduce AoA.  In a recovery from an unintentional spin, the sooner the better!  👍

When I was training spins I was told to go through incipient spin to fully developed. So didn't even attempt to recover until full three rotations. Obviously it was not done for efficiency or quick recovery. I know in most case I can brake incipient spin quickly, but it was not a case LOL 

[Stearmandriver 2,332]

52 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

When I was training spins I was told to go through incipient spin to fully developed. So didn't even attempt to recover until full three rotations. Obviously it was not done for efficiency or quick recovery. I know in most case I can brake incipient spin quickly, but it was not a case LOL 

Yup, it's great you got some real training in them.  I hear stories these days about CFIs just being shown a one turn spin one time and getting their sign off.  Unfortunately that's actually legal - the way the reg is worded, the applicant just has to "receive training" in spin recovery; they don't have to fly one themselves and they certainly don't have to demonstrate teaching them.  And then they can go on as a CFI A to spin train a new applicant.  I've said for years we need an Advisory Circular to clarify that requirement so applicants actually have to demonstrate they're competent at spin recovery!