Boieing.

[G-RFRY 1,741]

Boeing faces ‘nuclear-level’ legal threat that could see people jailed (msn.com)

[Garys 213]

Perhaps they should also go after the two airlines for there inadequate pilot training and standards.

[james42 261]

13 minutes ago, Garys said:

Perhaps they should also go after the two airlines for there inadequate pilot training and standards.

Which two airlines might that be? Because if your referring to the Lion Air or Ethiopian accidents, they were not pilot error.

[Garys 213]

10 minutes ago, james42 said:

Which two airlines might that be? Because if your referring to the Lion Air or Ethiopian accidents, they were not pilot error.

What a load of rubbish.  Lion > Captain flew for 10 mins, Fo put it in the ocean after only 59 secs. Captain proved the aircraft was flyable. Ethiopian. Captain had tunnel vision. Engaged autoplitot and flew @ 94% N1 all the way to the ground. If this  is not pilot error then nothing in this industry is.

Edited May 16 by Garys

[james42 261]

35 minutes ago, Garys said:

What a load of rubbish.  Lion > Captain flew for 10 mins, Fo put it in the ocean after only 59 secs. Captain proved the aircraft was flyable. Ethiopian. Captain had tunnel vision. Engaged autoplitot and flew @ 94% N1 all the way to the ground. If this  is not pilot error then nothing in this industry is.

So why was the MAX grounded for over a year costing Boeing billions? Aircraft are not grounded for long periods of time because of pilot error. The dives were caused by repeated erroneous nose down inputs from the MCAS system which Boeing has acknowledged. There's plenty of information online about the incidents.

[rmeier 473]

45 minutes ago, Garys said:

What a load of rubbish.  Lion > Captain flew for 10 mins, Fo put it in the ocean after only 59 secs. Captain proved the aircraft was flyable. Ethiopian. Captain had tunnel vision. Engaged autoplitot and flew @ 94% N1 all the way to the ground. If this  is not pilot error then nothing in this industry is.

It was my understanding that both (accident) flight crews had insufficient altitude to correct for a runaway trim issue (in addition to multiple cockpit visual/aural alarms) due to faulty AOA probe.

[Biggles2010 345]

1 hour ago, Garys said:

What a load of rubbish.  Lion > Captain flew for 10 mins, Fo put it in the ocean after only 59 secs. Captain proved the aircraft was flyable. Ethiopian. Captain had tunnel vision. Engaged autoplitot and flew @ 94% N1 all the way to the ground. If this  is not pilot error then nothing in this industry is.

You would do well to read the full report of the investigations into these accidents.

[Garys 213]

12 minutes ago, james42 said:

So why was the MAX grounded for over a year costing Boeing billions? Aircraft are not grounded for long periods of time because of pilot error. The dives were caused by repeated erroneous nose down inputs from the MCAS system which Boeing has acknowledged. There's plenty of information online about the incidents.

Despite the MCAS inputs, both of these aircraft where flyable and landable. The fact that they weren't came down to pilot mishandling. Mishandling = error. To dismiss the role the crew played in the accidents and point the finger solely at the manufacturer is naive and extremely dangerous for any future training. Your 100% correct, there is plenty of info out there including the final report from the Ethiopion air regulators which both the NTSB and the European Air regulator needed to add verbage to include pilot handling deficiencies.

 

32 minutes ago, rmeier said:

It was my understanding that both (accident) flight crews had insufficient altitude to correct for a runaway trim issue (in addition to multiple cockpit visual/aural alarms) due to faulty AOA probe.

No that is not correct. The lion captain had maintained control of the aircraft for nearly 10 minutes. The F/O who should have never been in the cockpit to begin with failed to run the checklists which forced the captain to hand the aircraft over to the F/O who then lost control of the aircraft within seconds. 

The Ethiopian crew not only had a NOTAM about the MCAS System on the but they were also climbing. The captain had tunnel vision. He didnt use the IFSD or F/O instruments to cross reference his airspeed and attitude. He instead leveled off, tried to connect autopilot and continued to accelerate the aircraft well past its VMO. He put the aircraft in a condition where recovery was impossible.

[Garys 213]

1 minute ago, Biggles2010 said:

You would do well to read the full report of the investigations into these accidents.

I have. You would do well to look at the pilot training and hours on type

[lzamm 148]

38 minutes ago, Garys said:

Despite the MCAS inputs, both of these aircraft where flyable and landable

Irrespective of any crashes and pilot error, I take it you're in favour of aircraft having primary flight control systems controlled by a single unmonitored sensor and the system not correctly notified to the FAA or to pilots? 

Bad engineering remains bad engineering no matter whether it kills people or not.   Providing incorrect information to the FAA remains a federal crime likewise.  Boeing bought its way out of it with a few million dollars and some promises to upgrade its procedures, and reneged on those promises anyway because you know, what can possibly go wrong? Really bad luck it got caught out trying to save a few dollars by not installing a couple of bolts.

 

[Garys 213]

6 minutes ago, lzamm said:

Irrespective of any crashes and pilot error, I take it you're in favour of aircraft having primary flight control systems controlled by a single unmonitored sensor and the system not correctly notified to the FAA or to pilots? 

 

 

Nope, I'm not in favour of it all. I think it was ludicrous that only one FCC would send data to the flightdeck. Boeing should get what it deserves and the same goes for any manufactuer.  I also think its ludicrous that airlines are putting crew in the cockpit of commercial airliners with only 100hrs of training. They also need to be held accountable.  The outcomes of both of these Max accidents directly correllated to the crew hours and training on type. There is no coincedance here that the only crew member who flew through the MCAS ( Aviate - rule No1)  was the most expereinced with an impeccable training record.

[G-RFRY 1,741]

1 hour ago, Garys said:

I have. You would do well to look at the pilot training and hours on type

Boeing shot themselves in the foot by saying to airlines, no new training was need for this new aircraft. and present 737 pilots could fly the aircraft without retraining to get the aircraft sold.

[Garys 213]

9 minutes ago, G-RFRY said:

Boeing shot themselves in the foot by saying to airlines, no new training was need for this new aircraft. and present 737 pilots could fly the aircraft without retraining to get the aircraft sold.

Not 100% true, The launch airline put a tonne of pressure on Boeing to not have to re-train its thousands of pilots.  But thats not the case for these accidents. Have a look at the training records of the accident pilots. Except for the lion captain, the others had very little experience on type. One should have been fired during his checkride, one only just came out of flying academy and the other got 1000's of hours watching the clouds go by in widebodies

Edited May 16 by Garys

[G-RFRY 1,741]

7 minutes ago, Garys said:

Not 100% true, The launch airline put a tonne of pressure on boeing to not have to re-train its thousands of pilots. 

And the launch airline was ??. Even pilots that first tested the aircraft warned them the MCAS system needs extra training, Boeing did not want the as it delay sales.

This is why for some years Airbus has made the cockpit and controls uniform over the full range. And can type an aircraft change in a day in a simulator need only for change in aerosurfaces',

Edited May 16 by G-RFRY

[Garys 213]

3 minutes ago, G-RFRY said:

And the launch airline was ??. Even pilots that first tested the aircraft warned them the MCAS system needs extra training, Boeing did not want the as it delay sales.

I believe it was Southwest. Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt the test pilots have MCAS activate on more than one occasion? Did they crash? And if so why did they land safely?  Taking this into consideration and also that Ethiopian airlines had a NOTAM about the MCAS on their MAX fleet, why was the outcome so different?